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Iglesia Ni Cristo Replies

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by edpobre, Sep 25, 2002.

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  1. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    I challenge you ed to prove from the scriptures that Manalo was AUTHORIZED to and DELIVERED messages from God or that he was prophesied in any verse in the entire Bible. I have asked a few times before.
     
  2. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +37
    I was trying my new-found knowledge about combining color with size. No offense intended humblejoe. LouisBooth and I have a long history of "friendship" that goes past two years now.

    Ed
     
  3. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +37
    Are you NOT listening OldShepherd?  I have presented scriptures about Bro. Manalo being a messenger SENT from God. To verify this, you only have to go to any of gunnysgt's links to find out the verses we use to PROVE that Bro. Felix Manalo is an AUTHORIZED messenger of God.

    Now, I challenge you to do the SAME and prove by scripture that YOU  or anybody in YOUR church is a messenger SENT from God.

    Prove to me ALSO that the messages YOU or YOUR Church are messages FROM God as SPOKEN by Jesus (cf. Heb. 1:2; John 7:16; John 12:49-50).

    Ed
     
  4. Gunny

    Gunny Remnant Supporter

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  5. Caedmon

    Caedmon kawaii Supporter

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    No prob, bob. :p
     
  6. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    Are you NOT reading Pobre? I challenged you, NOT Gunnysgt! I have read Gunny's links, many before he posted them. If that is all you have then you have nothing. All those links quote the scriptures and then PROVE that all those scriptures could NOT be talking about Manalo!
    Why should I do any of that? You haven't responded to me. I have never made a claim that my particular church/denomination is the ONLY true church and that anyone who doesn't belong to it is going to hell. I do belong to the true church but it is NOT a denomination it is where two or three are gathered in the name of Jesus. Also I have never claimed there has ever been a prophet in my church. Where is there any requirement stated that the church must have a messenger from God?

    And I have NEVER seen any scripture which positively identifies a semi-educated Pinoy, who lied about his theological education, as any kind of messenger.
     
  7. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    Better do some more reading Pobre, Joseph Smith claimed he was prophesied in the O.T. There is also another guy who claims to be prophesied, Sun Myong Moon of the unification church. So will the REAL messenger, who was prophesied in the Bible please stand up. Also lets not forget Mohammed he also claimed to be prophesied in the Jewish and Christian scriptures.
     
  8. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +37
    Your hurling personal insults only show how childish you are OldShepherd. That shows you have ran out of valid arguments.

    Apostle Paul asks: "how can they preach UNLESS they are sent?" (Rom.  10:15). How can YOU or YOUR Church preach when you are NOT sent from God? Can someone who is NOT an airplane pilot TEACH somone how to fly an airplane? If this is what YOU or YOUR church teach, I only have pity on your loved ones who have placed their trust on you. YOUR are lreading them straight to the "lake of fire."

    Do you expect me or anyone to believe you OldsShepherd? Show proof that Joeph Smith and Sun Myong Moon claimed to have been prophesied in the OT. And as far as Mohammad is concerned, I 'm not  interested in Islam. I'm only interested in Christianity.

    Ed
     
  9. Gunny

    Gunny Remnant Supporter

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    Well, Ed I think it's wonderful you are interested in Christianity.

    The problem is that Felix Manalo has nothing to do with Christianity.

    You state Felix is spoken of in the O.T. and that this is the Airplane Pilot that God chose to teach INC Members only, to get to heaven by the teachings of a man (that claims to be God's last and true messenger) and the work of a man( a mere man) named Jesus( nothing more accoording to INC's, JW'S LDS's, Mormons, etc...) that allows the individual to be saved.

    Ed, after your restating of the Felix Manalo Gospel aka INC Gospel, over and over, and over, why Jesus is just a man, INC is the true church, the only church, you still have Salvation=Felix Manalo Gospel and the mere man Jesus that was given some super hero status while on earth.(in reality that's what you are relegating Jesus to by the INC aka Manalo Gospel spin, but ole' Felix is spoke of in the O.T. Right? Last true messenger of God, right?)

    Well, Ed you have chosen Felix Manalo to be your Pilot, so Maybe, just maybe Jesus is the co-pilot?

    Felix Manalo, as with all fasle prophets, determines the attributes of God as he sees fit, regardless of what God's Word states.

    With men such as Manalo, they state they are SPOKEN of in God's Word, received special/private revelation from God and then declared to the world, What Salvation is, according to their own creation of it, hatched up in their own twisted and decieved mind.

    What makes Felix Manalo, especially dangerous is His Grandiosity, Pride and Egotism, that allows him to state such nonsense and heresy that He Himself is spoken of in the O.T. God's Holy Word. Amazing, Alarming and Pathetic at the very least.

    Felix Manalo claiming"Look at me for I am God's last messenger and the prophets of old have indeed written about me .

    Why doesn't Manalo just state the crux of his madness" Manalo aka Iglesia ni Cristo, is the way, the truth and the life.

    If one doesn't see what this man is claiming about himself, surely they have been blinded by the god(prince of the air) of this world.
     
  10. jesusbball23

    jesusbball23 New Member

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    John 8:58 -  Jesus is the 'I AM,' which is God.

    John 14:6- through Jesus is the only way. Why would I just go through a regular man to God? I can only go to God through God himself.

    Matthew 8:28-30 - even the demons say Jesus is the Son of God.

    Matthew 9:5-7 Can a regular man forgive people's sins Or can God? Jesus himself said he can forgive sins.

    Matthew 14:32-33 - the people in the boat claimed Jesus as the Son of God.

    John 10:30 - Jesus and the Father (God) are ONE.

    -there many more scriptures.

     
     
  11. Kain

    Kain Varpatrol

    175
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    >>John 8:58 -  Jesus is the 'I AM,' which is God.

    Given the context of the rest of the NT and Jesus's words elsewhere, this means that Jesus was predestined from before Abraham, just as everything else God does.


    >>John 14:6- through Jesus is the only way. Why would I just go through a regular man to God? I can only go to God through God himself.

    Or through the Messiah whom God appointed as the mediator between God and man.


    >>Matthew 8:28-30 - even the demons say Jesus is the Son of God.

    He is called Son of God due to his supernatural birth:

    Luke 1:35
    And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

    God has no mother.

    >>Matthew 9:5-7 Can a regular man forgive people's sins Or can God? Jesus himself said he can forgive sins.

    And he also said that this function was handed down to him by his Father. Do you doubt his words?


    >>Matthew 14:32-33 - the people in the boat claimed Jesus as the Son of God.

    See Luke 1:35 above.


    >>John 10:30 - Jesus and the Father (God) are ONE.

    Jesus also said he and the desciples are one. Are the desciples also 'person's' of God?

    Rather, Jesus meant that they are in agreement. For as Jesus demonstrates, all he does is from the Father.


    -there many more scriptures.

    Yes, like these trinity-killers:

    Jhn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.

    1Cr 8:6 But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.

    2Cr 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

    Col 1:3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
     
  12. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "this means that Jesus was predestined from before Abraham, just as everything else God does."

    LOL, no it means he exsisted before Abraham.

    "He is called Son of God due to his supernatural birth:"

    Nooo..its a title of authority.

    "And he also said that this function was handed down to him by his Father. Do you doubt his words?"

    Yes, becuase before coming to earth he gave it up first.

    "Jhn 20:17 "

    Funny how you don't look at her response...she says, I have seen THE LORD, not my lord, but THE LORD. Its not a killer at all, its actually a enforcer.

    "1Cr 8:6"

    Again, not a "killer" at all if you look at the context. If you look at the context it says yet again Christ is God. Who do you ultimatly sin against? its always against God as Joseph tells us in Gen 39:9 but here in 1 corinthians it says we ultimatly sin against Christ (vs 12) thus the conclusion is simple, Christ is God.

    "2Cr 11:31"

    Again not a "killer" at all, it is a simple proclamation thanking and prasing God and his son. You are to serve only God, but here Paul says he is a servant of Christ, not God..conclusion? Another chapter enforcing the truth that Christ is God.

    "Col 1:3"

    LOL, a whole book that proclaims Christ is God, most noteably in 2:9

    Try again, the only think you killed was your side of the "arugment".
     
  13. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +37
     
  14. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +37
    That's a matter of opinion gunnysgt. 

    Bro. Manalo OPENED my eyes to the TRUTH that Jesus is a MAN and the FATHER alone is the ONLY true God. These are what God's WORD states gunnysgt. What are you talking about?

    Most people believe the LIE that "faith alone saves." Bro. Manalo OPENED my eyes to the TRUTH that "man is justified by WORKS and NOT by "faith only." This is EXACTLY what God's WORD states. Whose mind is TWISTED and DECEIVED gunnysgt?

    John the Baptist, Jesus and Apostle Paul ALL claimed PROPHECIES written in the Old Testament that SPOKE of them. The Jews THOUGHT they were dangerous and SOUGHT to kill them. You are acting LIKE one of these Jews gunnysgt. 

    The first-century Christians SAW what John the Baptist, Jesus and apostle Paul were claiming about themselves.  They were CLAIMING the SAME thing that Bro. Manalo CLAIMS - that they were messengers SENT by God.

    Were they blinded by the god of the world? I don't think so. The Jews who killed Jesus were and so are you.

    Ed
     
  15. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +37
    How did you arrive at the CONCLUSION that "I AM" means Jesus existed BEFORE Abraham? 

    Being called a 'Son of God' entitles one to call God Father and inherit His promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

    However, whatever the reason of God calling for Jesus His 'Son' (Matt. 3:17; 17:5) is immaterial. The TRUTH remains that Jesus is a MAN (John 8:40) and being 'Son of God' does NOT make him God.

    If Jesus was God and HAD the power to FORGIVE sins BEFORE coming to earth, did he NOT know that he will NEED this power when he BECOMES a MAN? Why did Jesus find it necessary to give up a power which he knew (if he were God) he would NEED?

    But then, if Jesus were God  BEFORE coming to earth and BECOMING a MAN, who is the God who "EXALTED him to His right hand as Prince and Savior, to GIVE repentance to Israel and FORGIVENESS of sins" (Acts 5:31)?

    Funny how Trinitarians grab at anything to support their FALSE doctrine that Jesus is God. Mary Magdalene told the disciples that she had seen 'THE Lord' (John 20:18), not 'my Lord' because Jesus is NOT exclusively 'her' Lord. Jesus is also 'the Lord' of the disciples.

    To the first-cventury Christians, their ONLY ONE Lord is Jesus Christ, NOT God (1 Cor. 8:6).

    1 Cor. 8:12 does NOT say that we ULTIMATELY sin against Christ. The word 'ultimately' is an ADDITION to the verse. The verse says, "but when you thus sin against the brethren, you sin against Christ. ULTIMATELY, you sin against God. It's like Jesus' saying, "he who receives you receives me and he who receives me, receives Him who sent me" (Matt. 10:40).

    My, my, what a way to TWIST scripture. 2 Cor. 11:31 simply says: "The God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ, who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying."

    Don't you have any conscience at all Louis? How can you say that with a straight face? 

    A whole book? You only have Col. 2:9 to TWIST to support your FALSE doctrine. Col. 1:3 says Jesus HAS a 'God AND Father.' Col. 1:15 says Jesus is the IMAGE of the INVISIBLE God.

    And you call Colosians a whole book that proclaims Christ is God!What a LIE!

    Ed
     
  16. Gunny

    Gunny Remnant Supporter

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    Well Ed, God opened my eyes, not a man, who claims to be written about in God's Holy Word, a man who was so discouraged by various religions that he created his own-WITH his own doctrine.

    Sounds to me Ed, that you are more dependent upon a man(Manlo) than God.

    You state Manalo, opened your eyes to the truth about God and Salvation.

    Sounds to me as if your brother Felix, is a false idol of sorts--OPENS THE EYES OF THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN BLINDED AND DECEIVED, RIGHT Ed?

    Well, you keep your lesser god(s), Manalo and HIS RELIGION, Iglesia ni Cristo, Once again with cults:

    Salvation= Founder, prophet, messenger and their doctrine + whatever else they want to make Salvation out to be.
     
  17. Kain

    Kain Varpatrol

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    And who's day did Abraham rejoice in seeing? Your taking it out of context. Jesus is explaning that he is the Son of God, the messiah which was revealed to Abraham and was cause for Abraham to rejoice, which existed in God's plan from the very beginning.

    The translation of I AM (in caps) is a misleading trinitarian alteration. The words are I am (he). Which is Jesus confirming that he is the one, the messiah promised from ancient times. But God doesn't say I AM. God says "I am who I am." Dispite trinitarian misapplication, "I am" which is used like any common phrase by anyone does not equal "I am who I am."

    Then you disagree with scripture. The verse gives the reason Jesus was called Son of God, and referred to (in 1 chr 15:45) as the last Adam. Both had supernatural births, created by God.

    If you doubt even his own words, then nothing I can say will convince you. He came to earth in power with the indwelling spirit of God, but instead of pretending to be god (equality with God is not something to be desired), he instead humbled himself for the glory of God and denied being God.

    One of the messiah's titles is 'the Lord.' God the Father on the other hand is Lord God.

    Mary Magdalene would not consider Jesus is God after what he told her in verse 17. Neither should you.


     
  18. jesusbball23

    jesusbball23 New Member

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    Kain do you understand the H20 cycle? It's basically the same as the trinity cycle.

     

    -for Ed, do you understand biblical interpretation? When looking at one passage that sounds like Jesus may be God, and another not, you must relate EVERY passage talking about that topic of Jesus. Not just one or two. EVERY passage, OT and NT. That's correct interpretation and Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic language translations are key.
     
  19. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +37
    Who sets the standard for correct Bible interpretation? What you are saying is the usual Trinitarian standard for correct Bible interpretation that DISREGARDS truth to arrive at FALSEHOOD.

    The Bible alone is the authority on correct Bible interpretation. Apostle Paul wrote that what they received from God, they (messengers of God) teach, "NOT in words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches: COMPARING spiritual things WITH spiritual" (1 Cor. 2:13).

    Hence, we do NOT compare God with an egg or H20 which are man's wisdom but COMPARE scriptures WITH scriptures to arrive at the TRUTH.

    For example John 10:30 where Jesus says, "I and the Father are ONE." We COMPARE this WITH John 8:40 and John 17:3 to arrive at the TRUE interpretation.

    Since John 8:40 and John 17:3 are self-explanatory regarding WHAT Jesus IS and WHO God IS, while John 10:30 is VAGUE, we REJECT the interpretation of John 10:30 that Jesus is ONE God with the Father.

    Another example is John 20:28 where Jesus says "I AM." This is VAGUE as to WHAT Jesus is and WHO God is COMPARED to John 8:40 and John 17:3. That's why we also REJECT the interpretation that Jesus was CLAIMING he is God when he said "I AM."

    I hope you learn from what the Bible teches.

    Ed

     
     
  20. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +37


    Be HONEST gunnysgt. It was NOT God who you say "opened" your eyes. The TRUTH is, according to apostle John,  you do NOT have God  because you do NOT abide in the doctrine of Christ (2 John 1:9) that he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the Father is the ONLY true God (John 17:3).

    Ed
     
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