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If you're not Catholic...

Discussion in 'One Bread, One Body - Catholic' started by Kirkland1244, Nov 24, 2001.

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  1. Kirkland1244

    Kirkland1244 Regular Member

    195
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    Anglican
    then why should we care what you think about the Catholic Church? Non-Catholics are in no position to malign the Church, since it appears that none of them have the necessary mental accuity to understand Catholic belief.

    The Bible is part of God's revelation. However, it is generally inappropriate to call it the Word of God. Why? Because that title belongs to Jesus, and Jesus alone. The Bible is not the Logos. The Bible CANNOT be the Logos, because the term Logos implies an independent living will, which paper and ink clearly do not have.

    The Catholic Church does not teach that one EARNS one's salvation. Salvation is not by faith alone. Nor is it by works. Salvation comes only through Grace, as is taught by revelation and faithfully believed by God's Church throughout 2000 years.

    Anyone who says that Catholics are idolaters because we "worship" saints, or that we think we "earn" our way to Heaven, or that we think the pope doesn't "sin" or that we think Mary is equal to God or Jesus is a liar. No different in practice than the king of lies, who no doubt jumps with glee every time some ignorant Fundamentalist spreads evil by repeating garbage concocted by Jack T. Chick, Dave Hunt, Tim LaHaye, Lorraine Boettner or any other disreputable Fundamentalist.

    Decent Christains, be they Cathlolics, Orthodox, or historical Protestants, have no use for Fundamentalists and their lies, and should ostracize them from all conversation. Anyone too dumb to realize Catholics don't worship statues is too dumb to have a worthwhile conversation with anyway.

    Kirk
     
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?


  2. All I know is that I've met many people who have been disillusioned by the Catholic Church and have abandoned their religion, sometimes even in favor of witchcraft.

    What I hope I could get you people to realize is that you don't need the Catholic Church for salvation. It is found through Jesus Christ and nothing else. You don't need to confess your sins to a priest because the only intermediary between you and God is Jesus Christ. You don't need to pray to any dead saints, or mindlessly chant prayers, or any of that other nonsense that Catholics have adopted as tradition.

    The Bible only, faith only, grace only, in Christ only, and to God only be the glory.



    This is mainly an issue of semantics which detracts from the main point. I had quite a bit to write about this, but my computer froze up and I don't want to rewrite it. Logos can mean many other things as well, but it was used to describe Jesus in John 1:1. It makes no difference though. The Bible is completely sufficient by itself to guide our lives. I'll call it God's Words (plural) to distringuish from his WORD (singular). Happy now? Let's move on...



    You are right when you say that it is by Grace. But how is grace obtained? Through faith.

    For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9).





    You do pray to them though, when the Bible says not to communicate with dead people.



    I don't know if I'd say "earn", but you do think salvation is not by faith alone.



    No, but you do say that he is infallible.



    Let's just say you elevate her to a status I think she doesn't deserve by saying she was born free from original sin and stayed a virgin her entire life even after the birth of Christ (even though she was married).



    I wouldn't go that far. But how often do you actually read the Gospel? Honestly. If you read it often, that's good. But most Catholics I know hardly ever read the Bible.



    Heretics! I honestly don't know about any of those people. All I know is that I have compared Catholic doctrines with the Bible and at times they seem at odds.
     
  3. InHisName

    InHisName Guest

    +0
    Hello,
    I might be off topic, but I wanted to share what I dislike about the Catholic Church. It has nothing to do with beliefs. I am not Catholic, but have been to Mass several times through out the years.
    1. Catholic picnics: Why do you raise money selling beer to the general public and allow gambling. Maybe yours does not do this, but I have to say that 90% in my area do. I remember going to a funeral and afterwards we went back to the Catholic church and I was shocked to see bottles and bottles of hard liquor.and it was not wine. These are two of societies biggest problems and this is not setting a good example.

    2. Renting space: I remember going to a wild lets everybody(teenagers) get drunk party held in one of the main building rooms.

    3. Catholic Schools: I have not done an extensive survey, but I have asked many people who have went to Catholic school this question; How many times can you remember reading the bible. All have replied, "I don't think we did that" or something to that effect.

    I am not trying to Catholic bash, but just sharing the example the Catholic Church has been presented to me or everyone on the outside.

    My church sends out FAITH teams to share their faith and they find out that when you ask a Catholic person this question... "In your personal opinion what do you understand it takes for a person to get into heaven" ... most of the time they give a works answer.

    I have also noticed that people who leave the Catholic Church go to a non-denominational church.

    I have a Catholic friend who jokes that the Catholic faith is the only religion where you can smoke, drink, gamble and still get into Heaven. Pretty sad on his part.

    I have been a Christian for over two years and cannot say that I have ever in my life, met a Catholic (not saying there are none) person that was very spiritual. Most blend in well with the secular world.

    Granted every church is full of sinners, but the leadership has to be leaders and present that Church as a house of God. If Jesus came to a Catholic pinic, would he turn your tables over for defiling God's house?
     
  4. Wolseley

    Wolseley Beaucoup-Diên-Cai-Dāu

    +2,753
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    Blalron and InHisName:

    I could go into all of these points with you one by one, but rather than try to re-invent the wheel, I would urge you to access these sites, and surf:

    ic.net/~erasmus/RAZINDEX.HTM

    www.scripturecatholic.com

    a2z.org/acts/

    www.newadvent.org

    www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/contents.htm

    www.zenit.org/english/

    www.e3mil.com

    www.catholic.com

    www.catholic.net:80

    www.electriciti.com/~answers

    www.envoymagazine.com

    If you are truly curious about what the Catholic Faith is all about, I highly recommend these sites.

    If you want to go on believing what you currently think, then stick with Protestant sites about Catholicism, with professional bigots like Jack Chick and Loraine Boettner, or with uneducated, nominal, secularized lay Catholics who know nothing about their faith and either don't practice it or don't practice it properly.

    Happy reading, and best of luck! God bless.

    ---Wols.
     
  5. Kirkland1244

    Kirkland1244 Regular Member

    195
    +3
    Anglican
    All I know is that I've met many people who have been disillusioned by the Catholic Church and have abandoned their religion, sometimes even in favor of witchcraft.

    I can show you the same from people who have pulled out of Fundamentalist cults. Want to find some vehemently anti-Christian people? Talk to those who have freed themselves from teh snares of Southern Baptism.

    What I hope I could get you people to realize is that you don't need the Catholic Church for salvation.

    If you accept and acknowledge the Catholic Church as that which Jesus has established, then you cannot leave the Faith and still expect to be saved. Luckily for most ex-Catholics, they're generally too unintelligent to understand what they've walked away from (which also helps explain why they usually end up populating pews at Baptist and other Fundamentalist "churches").

    You don't need to confess your sins to a priest because the only intermediary between you and God is Jesus Christ.

    The priesthood is not a separate intermediary between God and the sinner. It is a part of the channels of Grace established by Christ when he gave the Apostles the authority to forgive sins in his name. A sincere act of perfect contrition can absolve sins, yes, but the normative means established by Christ is confession to a successor of the Apostles, and this is testified to by the witness of the Early Church.

    You don't need to pray to any dead saints, or mindlessly chant prayers, or any of that other nonsense that Catholics have adopted as tradition.

    This entire sentence is utterly offensive. Sincere Catholics do not "mindlessly chant" anything. And Catholic Tradition is NOT NONSENSE you Fundamentalist jerk.

    This is mainly an issue of semantics which detracts from the main point.

    NO. This is not an issue of semantics. The term LOGOS can <b >NOT[/b] apply to a book. It can only apply to a living entity. The Bible is in no way a living entity. Logos = Jesus. Logos cannot = the Bible.

    The Bible is completely sufficient by itself to guide our lives.

    The Bible does not claim this. Nor did the Early Church believe this. If the Early Church didn't believe it, or didn't have precursors to this belief present in their theology, then it's garbage.

    You are right when you say that it is by Grace. But how is grace obtained? Through faith.

    But not through Faith that lacks worth. James makes it clear that if you only have faith you have nothing. Zip. Zero. Zilch. Nada. Nothing. Faith without works is 100% absolutely worthless.

    You do pray to them though, when the Bible says not to communicate with dead people.

    The Bible says not to practice Necromancy, which is communication with the dead in the hopes of knowing the future. In any case, the Saints are no more dead than Moses or Elijah or any other who are in Heaven. Those in Heaven are more alive than you or me.

    And in any case, no Catholic is ever required to pray to any Saint. Sheesh.

    I don't know if I'd say "earn", but you do think salvation is not by faith alone.

    It's not. Read James.

    No, but you do say that he is infallible.

    Which has nothing whatsoever to do with sin. And he is only protected from error by the Holy Spirit in EXTREMELY limited circumstances.

    Let's just say you elevate her to a status I think she doesn't deserve

    Who cares what you think?

    But how often do you actually read the Gospel?

    Nightly.

    But most Catholics I know hardly ever read the Bible.

    Well then they are disregarding oft-repeated request of the Vatican, and they in any case, if they faithfully attend Mass they hear the vast majority of the Bible every three years, whether they read it in private or not.

    All I know is that I have compared Catholic doctrines with the Bible and at times they seem at odds.

    Who cares what your meaningless personal interpretation of the Bible says, and how it lines up with that of the Church founded with God? Not me.

    Kirk
     
  6. If I promise to go to those Catholic sites and read them, will you promise to go to my Protestant sites? :)
     
  7. Kirkland1244

    Kirkland1244 Regular Member

    195
    +3
    Anglican
    1. Catholic picnics: Why do you raise money selling beer to the general public and allow gambling. Maybe yours does not do this, but I have to say that 90% in my area do. I remember going to a funeral and afterwards we went back to the Catholic church and I was shocked to see bottles and bottles of hard liquor.and it was not wine. These are two of societies biggest problems and this is not setting a good example.

    There is nothing objectively wrong with drinking in moderation nor gambling with excess funds. Either taken to excess is sinful, but then, so is eating cookies. Are you going to ban cookies? Mindsets like yours led to the worst piece of legislation ever passed in this country: prohibition, which cost more lives and turned more decent people into criminals than any other stupid Fundamentalist crock of BS in history.

    3. Catholic Schools: I have not done an extensive survey, but I have asked many people who have went to Catholic school this question; How many times can you remember reading the bible. All have replied, "I don't think we did that" or something to that effect.

    Every Catholic hears the vast majority of the Bible just by going to Mass over the course of three years. You'd be hard pressed to find a more Scripture-soaked religious service than a Catholic Mass. Far more Scripture read or referenced in a Mass than in any Protestant service I've ever attended, which seem to be more centered around the pastor/minister and what HE thinks the Bible means than anything else. Who gives a flip what he thinks, anyway?

    I have also noticed that people who leave the Catholic Church go to a non-denominational church.

    Make sense. To fall for the BS anti-Catholics spread about the faith you have to be pretty stupid to begin with, so a Fundamentalist non-denominational "church" would be a good fit for those people.

    I have a Catholic friend who jokes that the Catholic faith is the only religion where you can smoke, drink, gamble and still get into Heaven. Pretty sad on his part.

    Pretty damn judgemental on your part. Oh, I'm sorry. You're a fundamentalist, if you can't judge other people wantnig your entire life falls apart.

    There is nothing objectively wrong about drinking or gambling. I have problems with smoking, but that's just my personal opinion. And smoking isn't going to send anyone to hell, in any service I've ever attended, be it in my current Catholic Church or my old Methodist Church, or any of the times when I've unfortunately had to set foot in a Baptist "church."

    If Jesus came to a Catholic pinic, would he turn your tables over for defiling God's house?

    No, because he has been guiding the Church throughout time. Yes, she has stumbled, but she has never formally promogulated error, and enver will.

    And Jesus would certainly not waste his time with the judgemental bigots that pollute Baptist and so-called "non-denomiational" "churches." They are the enemies of God. They attack with lies the Church Christ founded and has grouned in truth.

    Kirk
     
  8. Kirkland1244

    Kirkland1244 Regular Member

    195
    +3
    Anglican
    Why would anyone go to a Protestant site someone like you would recommend? What's to be gained? More heretical lies about the Catholic Church.

    There are a lot of good Protestants, and good Protestant Churches. And they all have one thing in common: none of them have the word "Baptist" attached to their title.

    I read Episcopalian sites, Lutheran sites, all the time. They're good, decent, historical branches of the religion.

    There's nothing to be learned by the anti-Catholic, anti-intellectual nonsense that is the core of Fundamentalism.

    Kirk
     
  9. For some reason you think I am a Baptist. I am not.

    I'm a Christian. I believe what Jesus Christ said and what his Apostles wrote down. Jesus said,

    "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh unto the Father but by me" (John 14:6)

    "I am the door, by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved" (John 10:9)

    Paul wrote:

    Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

    I am confident I will get into heaven without Catholic sacraments. I am justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. I would like you to have that confidence as well.

    Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

    Good luck. I'll pray for you.


     
  10. Wolseley

    Wolseley Beaucoup-Diên-Cai-Dāu

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    Sure. Give me the URL's. :)
     
  11. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +62
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    US-Libertarian
    "And Jesus would certainly not waste his time with the judgemental bigots that pollute Baptist and so-called "non-denomiational" "churches." They are the enemies of God. They attack with lies the Church Christ founded and has grouned in truth. "

    This is the kinda stuff that makes me sick to my stomach. Kirk you need to go pray and calm down. The same thing can be said about you from their view but I won't say it because it violates 1. the rules and 2. what christ taught.
     
  12. KC Catholic

    KC Catholic Everybody's gone surfin'...Surfin' U.S.A

    +76
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    I've been as impartial as I can..

    Louis, how can it be wrong for Kirk to get upset about being attacked for being Catholic, yet you aren't bothered by what InhisName and BlalronResurrected stated?

    I'm the moderator and quite frankly, I understand why Kirk and Wols both are upset. We answer these same issues again and again, even to the point of being attacked - and they've had enough.

    You don't go into someone's house and insult and degrade them. This is a Catholic forum, we don't mind discussion on Catholic issues, but attacks from Protestants will not be tolerated.

    I have asked individuals privately to settle down and discuss things rationally, but we can't have this going on in this forum.

    Please, I'm asking all of you here to take a moment and ask Christ for his forgiveness. Reflect in your hearts on your behavior and ask the Holy Spirit to guide your thoughts and words.

    I am closing this thread for now, if anyone has any concerns email or PM me privately.

    Peace.
     
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