If you're engaged, is it still fornicating?

[BellaSong]

I've stuck a finger up a lot of bums and got paid for it too

If I didn't get what you meant, that would sound REALLY bad

 

[rppearso]

Wow, I guess there is some interest in [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], I just had it in a list and the biggest issues between my wife and I were her rage and frequency of sexual activity, we are doing very well now. As far as the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] if you are very clean and use a douch solution each time you are ok, you dont have to stick it all the way up your anus to get it clean (risking internal issues). It is very pleasureable, but to each there own, we dont use dental dams or condoms or any of that it diminishs the pleasure and we have been married for almost 4 years so theres no STD issue.

 

[BrotherAtArms]

Wow this thread turned way off topic O_O

 

[rppearso]

Wow this thread turned way off topic O_O

I would agree, but if people are interested people are interested, I would recommend just googling it if you want to know more

 

[AdJesumPerMariam]

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[twob4me]

We are reopening this thread now. You are to stay on topic. If you aren't sure what the topic is please refer to the OP.

Thank you

twob4me
Super Moderator
Ministry Team

 

[koban4max]

Hi,
This question is directed at christian couples as this is kind of a christian values kinda question...
I just got engaged on Christmas and me and my girlfriends (both saved and unsaved) have been having a debate. The question is: If me and my fiance have sex before our wedding, is it considered fornicating? One side says yes - since there is no legal document acknowledging our union, it's not acknowledged by God. The other side says no - since we've acknowledged each other as husband and wife, God does as well and we don't need to wait for a piece of paper.
I'm also asking from a personal standpoint. Does anyone regret sleeping with their SO before marriage? Does anyone say it didn't make a difference (in the relationship and sex)? Now that you're married, is there anything you would've done differently in this area?
I didn't want to indicate which side I'm on because I don't want it to affect your answers, but I will say that my fiance and I are about pleasing Him first, before ourselves. (I know that gives it away, but oh well )
Thanks for your insight
Have a Happy New Year!

Eh...sex before marriage and after marriage....eh..it makes no difference since we fall short....

 

[BrotherAtArms]

Eh...sex before marriage and after marriage....eh..it makes no difference since we fall short....

I bet God would say different... what if the person who had sex before marriage died before they got a chance to repent? What would Jesus say to them on judgment day?

 

[Weasel7711]

I bet God would say different... what if the person who had sex before marriage died before they got a chance to repent? What would Jesus say to them on judgment day?

I may be mistaken, but are you saying Christ's blood doesn't cover ALL sin, only the sin repented for before you die?

 

[Margim]

I bet God would say different... what if the person who had sex before marriage died before they got a chance to repent? What would Jesus say to them on judgment day?

"Hi, I'm Jesus. This is judgement day - did you have a good journey?"

OR

"So a Christian, a Muslim and a Jew walk into a bar... oh, you've heard that one?"

OR

"Would you like fries with that?"

Seriously, building any theology off what Jesus 'might' say on judgement day is a bit shaky. Jesus was forgiving people on the cross when they didn't even know what they were doing was wrong!!

I'm not saying go have sex to your hearts content, but lets keep marriage in perspective... marriage is a commitment to live together mutually and faithfully.

In some countries, you have to wait months for your wedding to become legal, so couples who have already made a decision to become married move in.

In the past, sometimes formal ceremonies were too expensive... so couples would simply announce they were moving in and do that.

Today, de facto relationships are effectively recognised as marriage for legal purposes. I don't know that everyone's situation is always going to be the same, but if its committed, mutual, and faithful, then its certainly a good start.

 

[BrotherAtArms]

"Hi, I'm Jesus. This is judgement day - did you have a good journey?"

OR

"So a Christian, a Muslim and a Jew walk into a bar... oh, you've heard that one?"

OR

"Would you like fries with that?"

Seriously, building any theology off what Jesus 'might' say on judgement day is a bit shaky. Jesus was forgiving people on the cross when they didn't even know what they were doing was wrong!!

I'm not saying go have sex to your hearts content, but lets keep marriage in perspective... marriage is a commitment to live together mutually and faithfully.

In some countries, you have to wait months for your wedding to become legal, so couples who have already made a decision to become married move in.

In the past, sometimes formal ceremonies were too expensive... so couples would simply announce they were moving in and do that.

Today, de facto relationships are effectively recognised as marriage for legal purposes. I don't know that everyone's situation is always going to be the same, but if its committed, mutual, and faithful, then its certainly a good start.

Sin without foreknowledge is one thing, however, practicing sin with the question in mine 'is this sin?' is wrong. As well, of course, the act of sinning knowing it's a sin, even expecting to ask forgiveness, sin is sin, and sin is wrong.

Matthew 7:21-23 tells us exactly what Jesus will say on that day to the sinful:
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

We know from what the Word says that pre-marital sex is wrong. To do so is to practice lawlessness.

Yes, Jesus shed all His blood for our forgiveness, and yes, if we obey the Lord then we are covered by the Blood. However, if we practice lawlessness, even after saying a sinner's prayer, we may still find ourselves cast into hell fire.

The Bible says in 2 Peter 2:14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless.

There's no doubt that God is merciful, however He has laid down laws that we are to obey. Every human being has faced trials, tests, temptations, however these things are not the sin; acting on these temptations is the sin. Jesus was the example, He said to every temptation of satan, 'No'.... we are to follow His example. Put in a basic way WWJD (What Would Jesus Do?).
We all fail, yes, but we don't have the incapability to refrain from sin. The Bible teaches to flee immorality.

1 Corinthians 6:18
Shun immorality and all sexual looseness [flee from impurity in thought, word, or deed]. Any other sin which a man commits is one outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body.
Other translations use the term 'fornication'.

The Bible teaches us these things because sin is literally spiritual death. And as such, Heaven is a place of life, not death... as also the Lake of Fire is known as the 2nd death, where the sinful who followed through with their carnal lusts and desires will face eternal death.
The Kingdom of God is a place for a people separated unto God, who die to there selves, but live to the spiritual ways.

Deuteronomy 14:2
For you are a holy people to the LORD your God, and the LORD has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

Romans 8:13
For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

 

[Margim]

Sin without foreknowledge is one thing, however, practicing sin with the question in mine 'is this sin?' is wrong. As well, of course, the act of sinning knowing it's a sin, even expecting to ask forgiveness, sin is sin, and sin is wrong.

Matthew 7:21-23 tells us exactly what Jesus will say on that day to the sinful:
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

We know from what the Word says that pre-marital sex is wrong. To do so is to practice lawlessness.

Yes, Jesus shed all His blood for our forgiveness, and yes, if we obey the Lord then we are covered by the Blood. However, if we practice lawlessness, even after saying a sinner's prayer, we may still find ourselves cast into hell fire.

The Bible says in 2 Peter 2:14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless.

There's no doubt that God is merciful, however He has laid down laws that we are to obey. Every human being has faced trials, tests, temptations, however these things are not the sin; acting on these temptations is the sin. Jesus was the example, He said to every temptation of satan, 'No'.... we are to follow His example. Put in a basic way WWJD (What Would Jesus Do?).
We all fail, yes, but we don't have the incapability to refrain from sin. The Bible teaches to flee immorality.

1 Corinthians 6:18
Shun immorality and all sexual looseness [flee from impurity in thought, word, or deed]. Any other sin which a man commits is one outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body.
Other translations use the term 'fornication'.

The Bible teaches us these things because sin is literally spiritual death. And as such, Heaven is a place of life, not death... as also the Lake of Fire is known as the 2nd death, where the sinful who followed through with their carnal lusts and desires will face eternal death.
The Kingdom of God is a place for a people separated unto God, who die to there selves, but live to the spiritual ways.

Deuteronomy 14:2
For you are a holy people to the LORD your God, and the LORD has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

Romans 8:13
For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

That still doesn't answer the point that marriage is defined and understood differently for many people - in the Bible, we've got polygyny (many wives), wives taken by conquest, wives taken by contract, wives who are sisters, daughters, cousins, wives who are slaves, wives who are equals, so on and so forth. There are examples where all of these (some now prohibited, which is probably a good thing) sexual relationships happen without condemnation. But they are there. Values change and shift over time. Definition of marriage shifts over time - the issue is nowhere near as definitive as you are making it out to be.

 

[eatenbylocusts]

sexual relationships happen without condemnation.

You can't assume that God approved of it just because the condemnation was not included in the next verse.

 

[Margim]

You can't assume that God approved of it just because the condemnation was not included in the next verse.

Its alright, I'm not cheering it on, just pointing out the enormous diversity.

A minor curiosity, and a little off topic, did you know that Father-Daughter intimacy is the only form of incest missing from the Levitical laws (ie, not expressly prohibited)? Odd (and definitely icky), but true. Interesting, when you consider that Lot fathers two nations through such a union...

 

[rppearso]

So once I have read through the whole bible then I will never sin again my whole life I guess using your logic, I dont think anyone is disagreeing its wrong or sin people are disagreeing on what constitutes "marriage" and stating the fact that everyone messes up especially with sexual issues because sexual urges were put in us by God, God dident put natural tendencys in us to shoot crack or get drunk every night granted some people do it but it is not a God given urge like sex is especially from about 16 to 29. If you burn with passion then you are to marry, what constitutes marriage I guess would be up to the couples hearts.

 

[BrotherAtArms]

Its alright, I'm not cheering it on, just pointing out the enormous diversity.

A minor curiosity, and a little off topic, did you know that Father-Daughter intimacy is the only form of incest missing from the Levitical laws (ie, not expressly prohibited)? Odd (and definitely icky), but true. Interesting, when you consider that Lot fathers two nations through such a union...

Definitely off topic, but my response to that is from Leviticus 18:7 which says The nakedness of your father, which is the nakedness of your mother, you shall not uncover, which if anything is talking to the son and daughter not to uncover the father's nakedness, it's pretty hard to have sex being covered up.
As well as the fact that the daughters of Lot did wrong, it happened yes, but no one ever said, "Good Job!"

Back on subject... sure marriage has changed over time in different societies, nations, and laws, the question is which one of these do you live in?
As for me, I live in an American nation, with an American society, under American law, and American law requires contract for marriage.
If you live somewhere (another country) that doesn't require something like this, then that's different, but like I said, societies, nations, and laws of the current day and age.

I can't give any power at all to being married in our 'heart' because the Bible says that you should for one (if getting divorced) give a certificate of divorce. I'd find that odd to have to give a document like that if you didn't need a document to get married...
Second and lastly, every girlfriend I have had since I was 12 I could have said that I was married to her in my heart... but that just doesn't work.

 

[HisLittleHazelnut]

Let me throw my situation into the bathwater.

I got married in November 2004, legally, with a few friends around me.
Three days later we got a phone call saying that my FAMILY had the marriage annulled because my fiance had a disability that they believed would make it impossible for him to be a fit husband (he's autistic).
In that state, if one of the parties was under 21, they could legally do that. Unfortunately, the court agreed with them.
We have been separated by thousands of miles ever since.

So I'm waiting to get married again, until we have the money to do so. We repeat our vows nearly every day. We believe that we are still married. I will get to see him in a couple of weeks, and I know it's not wrong to sleep with him. But my family would freak because since it's no longer "legal" it's no longer right.

That's their view. I have mine.

In our engagement, we decided that the only acceptable reason for a break up would be cheating, just like the only just reason to break up a betrothal. And even though he has nearly died (he had a very severe sickness) and could still die someday from this illness, I have stayed with him. Is this not the heart of marriage?

 

[BrotherAtArms]

Let me throw my situation into the bathwater.

I got married in November 2004, legally, with a few friends around me.
Three days later we got a phone call saying that my FAMILY had the marriage annulled because my fiance had a disability that they believed would make it impossible for him to be a fit husband (he's autistic).
In that state, if one of the parties was under 21, they could legally do that. Unfortunately, the court agreed with them.
We have been separated by thousands of miles ever since.

So I'm waiting to get married again, until we have the money to do so. We repeat our vows nearly every day. We believe that we are still married. I will get to see him in a couple of weeks, and I know it's not wrong to sleep with him. But my family would freak because since it's no longer "legal" it's no longer right.

That's their view. I have mine.

In our engagement, we decided that the only acceptable reason for a break up would be cheating, just like the only just reason to break up a betrothal. And even though he has nearly died (he had a very severe sickness) and could still die someday from this illness, I have stayed with him. Is this not the heart of marriage?

As screwed up as our government is with that law, I still hold to my belief that we should submit to our higher authorities like the Bible teaches. However, since you love him, and want to be with him in all these ways, I would just go ahead and get married without your family... I hate that they did something so wrong to you and him, but I still believe that you should get married to be in right standing with what the Bible says.
If you and your (ex) husband split up with only have been married in your hearts, it's splitting up, not divorce, and only people who are married can divorce.

But if you don't take to heart anything I've said so far, please take this to heart... Only go by what the Word of God says on the subject. If you believe the Bible to be the whole Truth, then it should be your guide through this whole situation. Sadly it does take a piece of paper to make one married, and according to the law, you're not married.
It hurts me to hear that you two were split up in this way, but keep in mind that mine, yours, or even your family's opinion doesn't matter, the only one who's opinion does matter is God's.

 

[Margim]

Let me throw my situation into the bathwater.

I got married in November 2004, legally, with a few friends around me.
Three days later we got a phone call saying that my FAMILY had the marriage annulled because my fiance had a disability that they believed would make it impossible for him to be a fit husband (he's autistic).
In that state, if one of the parties was under 21, they could legally do that. Unfortunately, the court agreed with them.
We have been separated by thousands of miles ever since.

So I'm waiting to get married again, until we have the money to do so. We repeat our vows nearly every day. We believe that we are still married. I will get to see him in a couple of weeks, and I know it's not wrong to sleep with him. But my family would freak because since it's no longer "legal" it's no longer right.

That's their view. I have mine.

In our engagement, we decided that the only acceptable reason for a break up would be cheating, just like the only just reason to break up a betrothal. And even though he has nearly died (he had a very severe sickness) and could still die someday from this illness, I have stayed with him. Is this not the heart of marriage?

Wow, what a story. Thanks for sharing - good on you!

 

[HisLittleHazelnut]

As screwed up as our government is with that law, I still hold to my belief that we should submit to our higher authorities like the Bible teaches. However, since you love him, and want to be with him in all these ways, I would just go ahead and get married without your family... I hate that they did something so wrong to you and him, but I still believe that you should get married to be in right standing with what the Bible says.
If you and your (ex) husband split up with only have been married in your hearts, it's splitting up, not divorce, and only people who are married can divorce.

But if you don't take to heart anything I've said so far, please take this to heart... Only go by what the Word of God says on the subject. If you believe the Bible to be the whole Truth, then it should be your guide through this whole situation. Sadly it does take a piece of paper to make one married, and according to the law, you're not married.
It hurts me to hear that you two were split up in this way, but keep in mind that mine, yours, or even your family's opinion doesn't matter, the only one who's opinion does matter is God's.

I guess you didn't read it right. We did get married legally. My family had it annulled, which they had no right to do. Would not God affirm the vows that we spoke that day and every day? We acted in faith that legally that was what we were supposed to do, and we did. It is not our fault or God's fault that my family acted the way they did.

We would like to get married again but I have been prevented by my family from getting a job (for fear that we would elope) until just recently.

By the way, if a county accidently lost your marriage record, would you no longer be married?