If you reverse the cocoon, the butterfly does not become a caterpillar - DNA is unidimensional

[Gottservant]

Hi there,

So you would have to do some difficult work, genetically to prove this: but my contention is that the butterfly does not become a caterpillar if you reverse the cocoon.

This is the no new information argument, in a specific context.

In other words, the butterfly needs specific genetic information to transition to a caterpillar, not simply a change in the process - this being the case, it can not simply evolve.

You could give it the information, but then you would be playing the role of God, not nature.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Evolutionists have a hard time explaining butterflies from caterpillars.

 

[crossnote]

Evolutionists have a hard time explaining butterflies from caterpillars.

except come pay day $$ the caterpillar flies. LOL

 

[Sparagmos]

Hi there,

So you would have to do some difficult work, genetically to prove this: but my contention is that the butterfly does not become a caterpillar if you reverse the cocoon.

This is the no new information argument, in a specific context.

In other words, the butterfly needs specific genetic information to transition to a caterpillar, not simply a change in the process - this being the case, it can not simply evolve.

You could give it the information, but then you would be playing the role of God, not nature.

Are you saying that a caterpillar changing into a butterfly is claimed to be evolution? And what do you mean “reverse the cocoon?”

 

[The Barbarian]

In other words, the butterfly needs specific genetic information to transition to a caterpillar, not simply a change in the process - this being the case, it can not simply evolve.

Individuals don't evolve; populations do. You're confusing sequences of gene expression with evolution.

 

[The Barbarian]

Evolutionists have a hard time explaining butterflies from caterpillars.

Don't see how. A half-century ago, my first course in entomology, the text book showed how imaginal discs in the larva were activated by genes to produce first a pupa, and then an adult. Since then, evolutionary development has elucidated the genetic steps in the process.

Today, biologists know that these adult structures arise from clusters of cells called imaginal discs, which first form when an insect embryo develops in its egg. In some species, imaginal discs remain largely dormant until the pupal stage, during which they rapidly proliferate and grow into adult legs, wings and eyes, using dissolved larval cells as fuel and building blocks. In other species, imaginal discs begin to take the shape of adult body parts before the insect pupates (See Sidebar: How Does a Caterpillar Turn Into a Butterfly?)

Swammerdam also recognized that not all insects metamorphose in the same way. He proposed four kinds of metamorphosis, which biologists later distilled into three categories. Wingless ametabolous insects, such as silverfish and bristletails, undergo little or no metamorphosis. When they hatch from eggs, they already look like adults, albeit tiny ones, and simply grow larger over time through a series of molts in which they shed their exoskeletons. Hemimetaboly, or incomplete metamorphosis, describes insects such as cockroaches, grasshoppers and dragonflies that hatch as nymphs—miniature versions of their adult forms that gradually develop wings and functional genitals as they molt and grow. Holometaboly, or complete metamorphosis, refers to insects such as beetles, flies, butterflies, moths and bees, which hatch as wormlike larvae that eventually enter a quiescent pupal stage before emerging as adults that look nothing like the larvae. Insects may account for between 80 and 90 percent of all animal species, which means 45 to 60 percent of all animal species on the planet are insects that undergo complete metamorphosis according to one estimate. Clearly, this lifestyle has its advantages.

A new generation
Complete metamorphosis likely evolved out of incomplete metamorphosis. The oldest fossilized insects developed much like modern ametabolous and hemimetabolous insects—their young looked like adults. Fossils dating to 280 million years ago, however, record the emergence of a different developmental process. Around this time, some insects began to hatch from their eggs not as minuscule adults, but as wormlike critters with plump bodies and many tiny legs. In Illinois, for example, paleontologists unearthed a young insect that looks like a cross between a caterpillar and a cricket, with long hairs coating its body. It lived in a tropical environment and likely rummaged through leaf litter for food.
How Did Insect Metamorphosis Evolve?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Individuals don't evolve; populations do.

What does that even mean?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Don't see how. A half-century ago, my first course in entomology, the text book showed how imaginal discs in the larva were activated by genes to produce first a pupa, and then an adult. Since then, evolutionary development has elucidated the genetic steps in the process.

Today, biologists know that these adult structures arise from clusters of cells called imaginal discs, which first form when an insect embryo develops in its egg. In some species, imaginal discs remain largely dormant until the pupal stage, during which they rapidly proliferate and grow into adult legs, wings and eyes, using dissolved larval cells as fuel and building blocks. In other species, imaginal discs begin to take the shape of adult body parts before the insect pupates (See Sidebar: How Does a Caterpillar Turn Into a Butterfly?)

Swammerdam also recognized that not all insects metamorphose in the same way. He proposed four kinds of metamorphosis, which biologists later distilled into three categories. Wingless ametabolous insects, such as silverfish and bristletails, undergo little or no metamorphosis. When they hatch from eggs, they already look like adults, albeit tiny ones, and simply grow larger over time through a series of molts in which they shed their exoskeletons. Hemimetaboly, or incomplete metamorphosis, describes insects such as cockroaches, grasshoppers and dragonflies that hatch as nymphs—miniature versions of their adult forms that gradually develop wings and functional genitals as they molt and grow. Holometaboly, or complete metamorphosis, refers to insects such as beetles, flies, butterflies, moths and bees, which hatch as wormlike larvae that eventually enter a quiescent pupal stage before emerging as adults that look nothing like the larvae. Insects may account for between 80 and 90 percent of all animal species, which means 45 to 60 percent of all animal species on the planet are insects that undergo complete metamorphosis according to one estimate. Clearly, this lifestyle has its advantages.

A new generation
Complete metamorphosis likely evolved out of incomplete metamorphosis. The oldest fossilized insects developed much like modern ametabolous and hemimetabolous insects—their young looked like adults. Fossils dating to 280 million years ago, however, record the emergence of a different developmental process. Around this time, some insects began to hatch from their eggs not as minuscule adults, but as wormlike critters with plump bodies and many tiny legs. In Illinois, for example, paleontologists unearthed a young insect that looks like a cross between a caterpillar and a cricket, with long hairs coating its body. It lived in a tropical environment and likely rummaged through leaf litter for food.
How Did Insect Metamorphosis Evolve?

Need more details.

 

[The Barbarian]

An imaginal disc is one of the parts of a holometabolous insect larva that will become a portion of the outside of the adult insect during the pupal transformation.[1] Contained within the body of the larva, there are pairs of discs that will form, for instance, the wings or legs or antennae or other structures in the adult. The role of the imaginal disc in insect development was first elucidated by Jan Swammerdam.[2]

During the pupal stage, many larval structures are broken down, and adult structures, including the discs, undergo rapid development. Each disc everts and elongates, with the central portion of the disc becoming the distal part of whichever appendage it is forming: the wing, leg, antenna etc.. During the larval stage, the cells in the growing disc appear undifferentiated, but their developmental fate in the adult is already determined.[3]

The experiment that demonstrates this developmental commitment is to take an imaginal disc from a third instar larva, about to undergo pupation, and subdivide it and culture it in the body of a younger larva. Discs can be continuously cultured this way for many larval generations. When such a cultured disc is eventually implanted in the body of a larva that is allowed to pupate, the disc will develop into the structure it was originally determined to become. That is, an antenna disc can be cultured this way and will, almost always, become an antenna (out of place, of course) when final development is triggered by pupation.
Imaginal disc - Wikipedia

What are and what are not imaginal discs: Reevaluation of some basic concepts (insecta, holometabola)
What are and what are not imaginal discs: Reevaluation of some basic concepts (insecta, holometabola) - ScienceDirect

Establishment of a cell line from lepidopteran wing imaginal discs: Induction of newly synthesized proteins by 20-hydroxyecdysone
Establishment of a cell line from lepidopteran wing imaginal discs: Induction of newly synthesized proteins by 20-hydroxyecdysone

Control of pupal commitment in the imaginal disks of Precis coenia (Lepidoptera: Nymphalidae)
Control of pupal commitment in the imaginal disks of Precis coenia (Lepidoptera: Nymphalidae) - ScienceDirect

 

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
Individuals don't evolve; populations do.

What does that even mean?

It means that alleles don't change in an individual. It keeps the genome it got at conception. Alleles change in populations, for a number of reasons, including mutation, natural selection, and so on.

Since evolution is a change in allele frequencies in populations over time...

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Barbarian observes:
Individuals don't evolve; populations do.



It means that alleles don't change in an individual. It keeps the genome it got at conception. Alleles change in populations, for a number of reasons, including mutation, natural selection, and so on.

Since evolution is a change in allele frequencies in populations over time...

Where did alleles come from?

 

[The Barbarian]

They evolve by mutation.

Where did alleles come from?

They evolve by mutation. That's commonly observed.