If you reject the LDS message...

[Rescued One]

Doctrine and Covenants 84 states:

74 Verily, verily, I say unto you, they who believe not on your words, and are not baptized in water in my name, for the remission of their sins, that they may receive the Holy Ghost, shall be damned, and shall not come into my Father’s kingdom where my Father and I am.
75 And this revelation unto you, and commandment, is in force from this very hour upon all the world, and the gospel is unto all who have not received it.
76 But, verily I say unto all those to whom the kingdom has been given—from you it must be preached unto them, that they shall repent of their former evil works; for they are to be upbraided for their evil hearts of unbelief, and your brethren in Zion for their rebellion against you at the time I sent you.
77 And again I say unto you, my friends, for from henceforth I shall call you friends, it is expedient that I give unto you this commandment, that ye become even as my friends in days when I was with them, traveling to preach the gospel in my power;
78 For I suffered them not to have purse or scrip, neither two coats.
79 Behold, I send you out to prove the world, and the laborer is worthy of his hire.
80 And any man that shall go and preach this gospel of the kingdom, and fail not to continue faithful in all things, shall not be weary in mind, neither darkened, neither in body, limb, nor joint; and a hair of his head shall not fall to the ground unnoticed. And they shall not go hungry, neither athirst.
81 Therefore, take ye no thought for the morrow, for what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, or wherewithal ye shall be clothed.
82 For, consider the lilies of the field, how they grow, they toil not, neither do they spin; and the kingdoms of the world, in all their glory, are not arrayed like one of these.
83 For your Father, who is in heaven, knoweth that you have need of all these things.
84 Therefore, let the morrow take thought for the things of itself.
85 Neither take ye thought beforehand what ye shall say; but treasure up in your minds continually the words of life, and it shall be given you in the very hour that portion that shall be meted unto every man.
86 Therefore, let no man among you, for this commandment is unto all the faithful who are called of God in the church unto the ministry, from this hour take purse or scrip, that goeth forth to proclaim this gospel of the kingdom.
87 Behold, I send you out to reprove the world of all their unrighteous deeds, and to teach them of a judgment which is to come.
88 And whoso receiveth you, there I will be also, for I will go before your face. I will be on your right hand and on your left, and my Spirit shall be in your hearts, and mine angels round about you, to bear you up.
89 Whoso receiveth you receiveth me; and the same will feed you, and clothe you, and give you money.
90 And he who feeds you, or clothes you, or gives you money, shall in nowise lose his reward.
91 And he that doeth not these things is not my disciple; by this you may know my disciples.
92 He that receiveth you not, go away from him alone by yourselves, and cleanse your feet even with water, pure water, whether in heat or in cold, and bear testimony of it unto your Father which is in heaven, and return not again unto that man.
93 And in whatsoever village or city ye enter, do likewise.
94 Nevertheless, search diligently and spare not; and wo unto that house, or that village or city that rejecteth you, or your words, or your testimony concerning me.
95 Wo, I say again, unto that house, or that village or city that rejecteth you, or your words, or your testimony of me;

Those who reject the LDS message here on earth seem to be in a lot of trouble.

And when is the last time that new converts gave the missionaries food, clothing and money (Whoso receiveth you receiveth me; and the same will feed you, and clothe you, and give you money)?

 

[mirrorrorrim]

Actually, funnily enough, it is rather common for people investigating the Church to invite missionaries over for dinner! So, there's your answer.

 

[Moodshadow]

Not only investigators, but members of the church, whether new or old, feed missionaries - nothing new about that. But last I heard (and that's admittedly been a while), in most areas missionaries are specifically instructed not to accept clothing and/or money from anyone except their families, whether or not they are members of the church. Maybe someone who has been associated with a recent mission experience could bring us up to date on that. But any way you look at it, it does appear that the Lord seems to have changed his mind about the clothing and money since Section 84 was given.

 

[mirrorrorrim]

I'm a little dated (two years), but there wasn't that policy in my mission.

It may very likely differ from one mission to another. I don't recall anything specific in the missionary handbook, although it might be in there. It seems like it would be a rare situation, though. Missionaries are definitely not allowed to receive anything as payment for service or work rendered, however, since missions are fully volunteer efforts. At most, missionaries would only be allowed to accept small quantities of money for meals (which I received on occasion), and missionaries are definitely expected not to solicit such things and should even refuse them if they are of unsuitable amounts. I believe there is something in the Handbook about that.

The revelation, originally given to leaders in the Church, does seem to mostly be limited to leaders today. When Seventy (and Apostles? I'm not sure) travel, they do stay with local members (usually a Stake President's family), and often receive meals from them as well. In a more general sense, our tithing serves the same purpose if necessary.

 

[mormonheretic]

Those who reject the LDS message here on earth seem to be in a lot of trouble.

I'm not seeing how this is any different than Mark 16:16, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

Are you saying that unbelievers will not be in a lot of trouble?

 

[Rescued One]

I'm not seeing how this is any different than Mark 16:16, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

Are you saying that unbelievers will not be in a lot of trouble?

Are you saying that non-LDS are unbelievers?

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Acts 16:13

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:18

I believe that Christ is the way, the truth, and the life, not a person's denomination. It is faith in Christ that saves an individual.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I find it difficult to comprehend the eternal state of the non-LDS such as myself. On one hand there seems to be extensive Mormon literature, including passages in the Four Standard Works, that explicitly assign us to perdition and eternal torment, much like the orthodox Christian understanding of the Lake of Fire. On the other hand, I am told that I will end up in the Telestial Kingdom where I will find perfect happiness eternally, albeit without the companionship of Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, or Holy Ghost. So, which is it?

 

[Moodshadow]

I find it difficult to comprehend the eternal state of the non-LDS such as myself. On one hand there seems to be extensive Mormon literature, including passages in the Four Standard Works, that explicitly assign us to perdition and eternal torment, much like the orthodox Christian understanding of the Lake of Fire. On the other hand, I am told that I will end up in the Telestial Kingdom where I will find perfect happiness eternally, albeit without the companionship of Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, or Holy Ghost. So, which is it?

My understanding is that the official "sons of perdition" doctrine is that the only people who will fall under that category are those who have had an immutable testimony of Jesus Christ - in other words, they have seen Him, spoken with Him, been spoken to by Him, or something like that - something they absolutely could not ever truthfully deny - but they deny it anyway. Those will obviously be relatively few in number. Even the murderers of innocent people will not be relegated to as dire an eternal fate, and, unlike the sons of perdition, they will ultimately have an opportunity to repent and receive forgiveness. As for the so-called telestial kingdom, Joseph Smith said that even it is so glorious that if mortals could see it they might commit suicide to get there - and obviously it is the lowest of the three glories.

And, as always, if I've made any errors here, there is no doubt that some LDS poster will hasten to correct me.

 

[BarryK]

Actually, funnily enough, it is rather common for people investigating the Church to invite missionaries over for dinner! So, there's your answer.

I'm a little dated (two years), but there wasn't that policy in my mission.

It may very likely differ from one mission to another. I don't recall anything specific in the missionary handbook, although it might be in there. It seems like it would be a rare situation, though. Missionaries are definitely not allowed to receive anything as payment for service or work rendered, however, since missions are fully volunteer efforts. At most, missionaries would only be allowed to accept small quantities of money for meals (which I received on occasion), and missionaries are definitely expected not to solicit such things and should even refuse them if they are of unsuitable amounts. I believe there is something in the Handbook about that.

The revelation, originally given to leaders in the Church, does seem to mostly be limited to leaders today. When Seventy (and Apostles? I'm not sure) travel, they do stay with local members (usually a Stake President's family), and often receive meals from them as well. In a more general sense, our tithing serves the same purpose if necessary.

so what happend in the past two years, ( since you mission0 that made you decide to leave the L.D.S?
I ak this because you do not have the L.D.S. icon, but merely the christian icon ( and we know full well what various members of the L.D.S. leadership have said over many years concerning us Christians)

 

[bbbbbbb]

My understanding is that the official "sons of perdition" doctrine is that the only people who will fall under that category are those who have had an immutable testimony of Jesus Christ - in other words, they have seen Him, spoken with Him, been spoken to by Him, or something like that - something they absolutely could not ever truthfully deny - but they deny it anyway. Those will obviously be relatively few in number. Even the murderers of innocent people will not be relegated to as dire an eternal fate, and, unlike the sons of perdition, they will ultimately have an opportunity to repent and receive forgiveness. As for the so-called telestial kingdom, Joseph Smith said that even it is so glorious that if mortals could see it they might commit suicide to get there - and obviously it is the lowest of the three glories.

And, as always, if I've made any errors here, there is no doubt that some LDS poster will hasten to correct me.

Thanks. That has been pretty much my understanding of the subject during my time here at CF. Thus, I do not find much reason to become LDS if my eternal destiny is one of unalloyed bliss, albeit without the presence of Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and Holy Ghost.

 

[Zechariah]

I find it difficult to comprehend the eternal state of the non-LDS such as myself. On one hand there seems to be extensive Mormon literature, including passages in the Four Standard Works, that explicitly assign us to perdition and eternal torment, much like the orthodox Christian understanding of the Lake of Fire. On the other hand, I am told that I will end up in the Telestial Kingdom where I will find perfect happiness eternally, albeit without the companionship of Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, or Holy Ghost. So, which is it?

Thanks. That has been pretty much my understanding of the subject during my time here at CF. Thus, I do not find much reason to become LDS if my eternal destiny is one of unalloyed bliss, albeit without the presence of Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and Holy Ghost.

First of all, your understanding of the doctrine is flawed. Those who receive an inheritance in the telestial kingdom (which, remember, is a kingdom of glory, and there is no glory without God) are not without the companionship of the Holy Ghost. What's more, they will be servants of God. How do you suppose one can serve God, if he is void of even the Holy Ghost?

Secondly, we are not fortune-tellers. We have no way of knowing where you will end up, or each other, for that matter, because we are not mind readers, cannot see into the hearts of other men, and because we have no way of knowing what you, or they, may or may not choose in the future. So we prefer to leave such judgment up to God, as He is the one with that capacity.

 

[mirrorrorrim]

so what happend in the past two years, ( since you mission0 that made you decide to leave the L.D.S?
I ak this because you do not have the L.D.S. icon, but merely the christian icon ( and we know full well what various members of the L.D.S. leadership have said over many years concerning us Christians)

Oh, right, my icon. I've been away so long, I completely forgot about that. I chose the Christian icon because I consider myself a Christian, although not by the definition of this web site (which is why I am confined to only three or four boards in the Theology section). The Latter-day Saint icon said "Mormon", and our previous prophet discouraged using that term. Historically, almost every denomination is referred to by derrogatory slurs their opponents gave them. Even Christians probably got the title from unbelievers; it just fit, so we kept it. If I say Society of Friends or God's People, how many will know what groups I'm referring to (a free cookie for whoever gets the second one)? In today's age of political correctness, it seems like it's time to shift away from that.

Um, to keep this on-topic, though... Um, ....

Oh, here we go!

On the topic of who or who is not an unbeliever—that's for God alone to decide. We preach the Gospel to non-Latter-day Saints, but we teach even more of it to those who are active members of the Church (more because they'll let us, than anything else ).

Taking the Gospel to all the world means just that—no exclusions. I think our mindset is to keep teaching, and helping everyone improve, no matter how good or bad we personally think they already are, then let God decide who goes where when He wants to.

I hope this helps.

 

[Rescued One]

Thanks. That has been pretty much my understanding of the subject during my time here at CF. Thus, I do not find much reason to become LDS if my eternal destiny is one of unalloyed bliss, albeit without the presence of Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and Holy Ghost.

Those in the Telestial Kingdom will be visited by the Holy Ghost according to LDS teaching.

Those in the Terrestrial Kingdom will be visited by Christ.

Personally, I don't believe there is any bliss or happiness without my Heavenly Father. Adam and Eve enjoyed His Presence.

 

[Rescued One]

On the topic of who or who is not an unbeliever—that's for God alone to decide. We preach the Gospel to non-Latter-day Saints, but we teach even more of it to those who are active members of the Church (more because they'll let us, than anything else ).

It was mormonheretic, and not you, who saw no difference between non-LDS and non-believers:

Those who reject the LDS message here on earth seem to be in a lot of trouble.

I'm not seeing how this is any different than Mark 16:16, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

Are you saying that unbelievers will not be in a lot of trouble?

And it is your scripture(yours and mormonheretic's) which states:

89 Whoso receiveth you receiveth me; and the same will feed you, and clothe you, and give you money.
90 And he who feeds you, or clothes you, or gives you money, shall in nowise lose his reward.
91 And he that doeth not these things is not my disciple; by this you may know my disciples.
92 He that receiveth you not, go away from him alone by yourselves, and cleanse your feet even with water, pure water, whether in heat or in cold, and bear testimony of it unto your Father which is in heaven, and return not again unto that man.
93 And in whatsoever village or city ye enter, do likewise.
94 Nevertheless, search diligently and spare not; and wo unto that house, or that village or city that rejecteth you, or your words, or your testimony concerning me.
95 Wo, I say again, unto that house, or that village or city that rejecteth you, or your words, or your testimony of me;
(Doctrine and Covenants 84)

Do you or do you not believe that Doctrine and Covenants are revelations from Jesus Christ? If you do believe this, then for you Christ has already revealed the matter and you are in agreement with it.

 

[mormonheretic]

If you do believe this, then for you Christ has already revealed the matter and you are in agreement with it.

Phoebe Ann,

With all due respect, you are in no way an expert on Mormonism, and I find it very irritating that you are a self-proclaimed expert. You have distorted this whole conversation.

It was mormonheretic, and not you, who saw no difference between non-LDS and non-believers:

I am sorry I was not able to respond sooner, but I said nothing of the sort. This is ANOTHER GROSS DISTORTION. Let me explain what I meant.

The title of this post is "If you reject the LDS message..."

When looking at the title and basically repeated in one of your last statements in the OP,

Those who reject the LDS message here on earth seem to be in a lot of trouble.

The whole purpose of your post seems to belittle and mock LDS beliefs, and seems to indicate that the LDS are unique in the idea that non-LDS are going to Hell. This is a GROSS DISTORTION again, and I find your TACTICS another form of DISINFORMATION. Your approach is truly destructive to LDS and non-LDS relations, and I ask you to truly learn LDS beliefs and quit spreading DISTORTIONS and DISINFORMATION.

Atheists typically spread distortions about Christianity, and I would expect more from you.

You (and many others here) seem to relish the idea of posting obscure passages without context, and making RASH statements like "Those who reject the LDS message here on earth seem to be in a lot of trouble."

My purpose in pointing out the scripture in Mark 16:16, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" was to point out that ALL Christians believe that unbelievers "shall be damned." This is not at all unique to Mormons. Does your belief system believe that Hindus or Muslims "shall be damned"? (I would expect you to call them "unbelievers" and therefore subject to damnation.) If this were a forum about Hindus and Muslims, do you think this would be considered flaming against Hinduism or Islam? If your belief system believes that Hindus and Muslims will not be damned, please explain your belief system to me. (I won't pretend to fully understand your belief system without clarification as you did when you said

If you do believe this, then for you Christ has already revealed the matter and you are in agreement with it.

Please quit distorting Mormon beliefs. We're happy to answer honest questions; but we do not like to have our beliefs distorted beyond recognition so they sound ridiculous and bizarre.

Phoebe Ann, if you believe that Mormons believe this passage from D&C that you have quoted, have you ever heard it quoted in ANY LDS church meeting that you have attended? If so, was it presented with the same interpretation that you are putting forth here?

It appears to me that this is your TACTIC: Find a passage of scripture or quote in Mormonism, make a sensational headline to make Mormonism sound bizarre, and then paint all Mormons as "in agreement with it." If this is not your purpose, please clarify your purpose to me, because I can't see your purpose as anything other than an attempt to belittle and mock Mormon beliefs. This seems to be a rule violation on this forum against mocking and belittling. If it is not a rule violation, please clarify why you think this is not belittling or mocking.

 

[Ran77]

Phoebe Ann,

With all due respect, you are in no way an expert on Mormonism, and I find it very irritating that you are a self-proclaimed expert. You have distorted this whole conversation.



I am sorry I was not able to respond sooner, but I said nothing of the sort. This is ANOTHER GROSS DISTORTION. Let me explain what I meant.

The title of this post is "If you reject the LDS message..."

When looking at the title and basically repeated in one of your last statements in the OP,



The whole purpose of your post seems to belittle and mock LDS beliefs, and seems to indicate that the LDS are unique in the idea that non-LDS are going to Hell. This is a GROSS DISTORTION again, and I find your TACTICS another form of DISINFORMATION. Your approach is truly destructive to LDS and non-LDS relations, and I ask you top truly learn LDS beliefs and quit spreading DISTORTIONS and DISINFORMATION.

Atheists typically spread distortions about Christianity, and I would expect more from you.

You (and many others here) seem to relish the idea of posting obscure passages without context, and making RASH statements like "Those who reject the LDS message here on earth seem to be in a lot of trouble."

My purpose in pointing out the scripture in Mark 16:16, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" was to point out that ALL Christians believe that unbelievers "shall be damned." This is not at all unique to Mormons. Does your belief system believe that Hindus or Muslims "shall be damned"? (I would expect you to call them "unbelievers" and therefore subject to damnation.) If this were a forum about Hindus and Muslims, do you think this would be considered flaming against Hinduism or Islam? If your belief system believes that Hindus and Muslims will not be damned, please explain your belief system to me. (I won't pretend to fully understand your belief system without clarification as you did when you said

Please quit distorting Mormon beliefs. We're happy to answer honest questions; but not have our beliefs distorted beyond recognition so they sound ridiculous and bizarre.

Phoebe Ann, if you believe that Mormons believe this passage from D&C that you have quoted, have you ever heard it quoted in ANY LDS church meeting that you have attended? If so, was it presented with the same interpretation that you are putting forth here?

It appears to me that this is your TACTIC: Find a passage of scripture or quote in Mormonism, make a sensational headline to make Mormonism sound bizarre, and then paint all Mormons as "in agreement with it." If this is not your purpose, please clarify your purpose to me, because I can't see your purpose as anything other than an attempt to belittle and mock Mormon beliefs. This seems to be a rule violation on this forum against mocking and belittling. If it is not a rule violation, please clarify why you think this is not belittling or mocking.

Those strike me as accurate observations.

 

[Rescued One]

Phoebe Ann,

With all due respect, you are in no way an expert on Mormonism, and I find it very irritating that you are a self-proclaimed expert. You have distorted this whole conversation.

I find it irritating that you distort my honest posts and claim that I am a self-proclaimed expert on Mormonism. I have not claimed to be an expert on anything. Now would you please define expert on Mormonism? Are you an expert on Mormonism?

I am sorry I was not able to respond sooner, but I said nothing of the sort. This is ANOTHER GROSS DISTORTION. Let me explain what I meant.

The title of this post is "If you reject the LDS message..."

When looking at the title and basically repeated in one of your last statements in the OP,

The whole purpose of your post seems to belittle and mock LDS beliefs, and seems to indicate that the LDS are unique in the idea that non-LDS are going to Hell. This is a GROSS DISTORTION again, and I find your TACTICS another form of DISINFORMATION. Your approach is truly destructive to LDS and non-LDS relations, and I ask you to truly learn LDS beliefs and quit spreading DISTORTIONS and DISINFORMATION.

Atheists typically spread distortions about Christianity, and I would expect more from you.

I did not mock LDS beliefs. I pointed them out. I did not put any spin on those verses.

You (and many others here) seem to relish the idea of posting obscure passages without context, and making RASH statements like "Those who reject the LDS message here on earth seem to be in a lot of trouble."

My purpose in pointing out the scripture in Mark 16:16, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" was to point out that ALL Christians believe that unbelievers "shall be damned."

Not all Christian denominations consider those of other denominations unbelievers. That is a huge important difference.

This is not at all unique to Mormons. Does your belief system believe that Hindus or Muslims "shall be damned"? (I would expect you to call them "unbelievers" and therefore subject to damnation.) If this were a forum about Hindus and Muslims, do you think this would be considered flaming against Hinduism or Islam?

It is a known fact of Christianity that non-Christians need to accept Christ. If I am wrong about Mormonism, your missionaries no longer need to attempt to convert Methodists, Baptists, and non-denominational Christians to your religion.

Please quit distorting Mormon beliefs. We're happy to answer honest questions; but we do not like to have our beliefs distorted beyond recognition so they sound ridiculous and bizarre.

I did not distort your beliefs or cause them to sound ridiculous and bizarre. You are the one saying that I made them sound bizarre.

Phoebe Ann, if you believe that Mormons believe this passage from D&C that you have quoted, have you ever heard it quoted in ANY LDS church meeting that you have attended? If so, was it presented with the same interpretation that you are putting forth here?

It appears to me that this is your TACTIC: Find a passage of scripture or quote in Mormonism, make a sensational headline to make Mormonism sound bizarre, and then paint all Mormons as "in agreement with it." If this is not your purpose, please clarify your purpose to me, because I can't see your purpose as anything other than an attempt to belittle and mock Mormon beliefs. This seems to be a rule violation on this forum against mocking and belittling. If it is not a rule violation, please clarify why you think this is not belittling or mocking.

Quoting LDS scripture is informative, not belittling or mocking. How often have we been told that official doctrine comes from LDS scripture?

Joseph Fielding Smith's words are not necessarily doctrine, but he said, "Let us have this matter clear. We have accepted the four standard works as the measuring yardsticks, or balances, by which we measure every man’s doctrine.”
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 3 vols. (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1955), 3:203.

Rather than try to mock and belittle me, I suggest that you explain those verses to us. We will have open dialogue.

 

[UnionJack]

whaaa?

 

[skylark1]

I am sorry I was not able to respond sooner, but I said nothing of the sort. This is ANOTHER GROSS DISTORTION. Let me explain what I meant.

The title of this post is "If you reject the LDS message..."

When looking at the title and basically repeated in one of your last statements in the OP,



The whole purpose of your post seems to belittle and mock LDS beliefs, and seems to indicate that the LDS are unique in the idea that non-LDS are going to Hell. This is a GROSS DISTORTION again, and I find your TACTICS another form of DISINFORMATION. Your approach is truly destructive to LDS and non-LDS relations, and I ask you to truly learn LDS beliefs and quit spreading DISTORTIONS and DISINFORMATION.

Atheists typically spread distortions about Christianity, and I would expect more from you.

You (and many others here) seem to relish the idea of posting obscure passages without context, and making RASH statements like "Those who reject the LDS message here on earth seem to be in a lot of trouble."

My purpose in pointing out the scripture in Mark 16:16, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" was to point out that ALL Christians believe that unbelievers "shall be damned." This is not at all unique to Mormons. Does your belief system believe that Hindus or Muslims "shall be damned"? (I would expect you to call them "unbelievers" and therefore subject to damnation.) If this were a forum about Hindus and Muslims, do you think this would be considered flaming against Hinduism or Islam? If your belief system believes that Hindus and Muslims will not be damned, please explain your belief system to me. (I won't pretend to fully understand your belief system without clarification as you did when you said

Whether or not the scripture that Phoebe posted in the OP is considered to be an obscure passage of scripture, I would think that it fits in with LDS beliefs that are common. Why else would LDS send out missionaries that proselytize to Christians and encourage them to believe the LDS gospel and be baptized by one with LDS authority?

LDS apostle Bruce McConklie wrote:

There is no such thing as a second chance to gain salvation by accepting the gospel in the spirit world after spurning, declining, or refusing to accept it in this life. It is true that there may be a second chance to hear and accept the gospel, but those who have thus procrastinated their acceptance of the saving truths will not gain salvation in the celestial kingdom of God.

Salvation for the dead is the system by means of which those who "die without a knowledge of the gospel" (D. & C. 128:5) may gain such knowledge in the spirit world and then, following the vicarious performance of the necessary ordinances, become heirs of salvation on the same basis as though the gospel truths had been obeyed in mortality. Salvation for the dead is limited expressly to those who do not have opportunity in this life to accept the gospel but who would have taken the opportunity had it come to them.

"All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel," the Lord said to the Prophet, "who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God; also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom, for I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts." (Teachings, p. 107.)​

It appears to me that this is your TACTIC: Find a passage of scripture or quote in Mormonism, make a sensational headline to make Mormonism sound bizarre, and then paint all Mormons as "in agreement with it."

If you think that this title is sensational, you should check out some of the headlines in General Theology. There is one titled "I can have sex with the pastor's wife and still go to heaven." (The original poster was not actually claiming this!) So far, it has 935 posts, and 7946 views! On the flip side, some of the threads that I have started about a specific passage of scripture with only a straight forward title has received few views or posts.

If this is not your purpose, please clarify your purpose to me, because I can't see your purpose as anything other than an attempt to belittle and mock Mormon beliefs. This seems to be a rule violation on this forum against mocking and belittling. If it is not a rule violation, please clarify why you think this is not belittling or mocking.

I don't think that her intent was to mock. Yes, she disagrees with Mormonism, but I think that she was trying to discuss a theological point.

 

[mormonheretic]

I find it irritating that you distort my honest posts and claim that I am a self-proclaimed expert on Mormonism. I have not claimed to be an expert on anything.

Oh contraire. Let's review what you have been teaching everyone on this particular topic.

"Those who reject the LDS message here on earth seem to be in a lot of trouble."

"Those in the Telestial Kingdom will be visited by the Holy Ghost according to LDS teaching. Those in the Terrestrial Kingdom will be visited by Christ."

"If you do believe this, then for you Christ has already revealed the matter and you are in agreement with it."

These matter of fact replies make it appear that you are an expert on Mormonism. While you do know some terms and seem to enjoy quoting the D&C, your "spin" on these scriptures is poor.

Now would you please define expert on Mormonism? Are you an expert on Mormonism?

As a Mormon for more than 40 years, having taught Mormon beliefs as a missionary, I am eminently more qualified than you in explaining Mormon interpretations of scripture.

I did not mock LDS beliefs. I pointed them out. I did not put any spin on those verses.

If you cannot see your own biases, then this isn't going to be a fruitful discussion. We ALL have biases, or as you call it "spin." If you don't believe that, what was the point you were making when you said "Those who reject the LDS message here on earth seem to be in a lot of trouble."?

Not all Christian denominations consider those of other denominations unbelievers. That is a huge important difference.

Difference to whom? I get the feeling that you have a big issue with the idea that Mormons think they will get into heaven, and a non-denominational person like you will be left out. Well, some Mormons probably believe that, but the fact of the matter is that (as Zechariah pointed out above), we are not to be the judge of whether someone is a believer or not.

Furthermore, am I correct that you believe that Muslims, Buddhists and Hindus are all going to Hell. If this is the case, then I think YOU have unfairly judged them just as you feel misjudged by some Mormons.

Finally, you didn't answer some questions that I would like to hear your response to. I will bold them for emphasis.

If you believe that Mormons believe this passage from D&C that you have quoted, have you ever heard it quoted in ANY LDS church meeting that you have attended? If so, was it presented with the same interpretation that you are putting forth here?

If this were a forum about Hindus and Muslims, do you think this would be considered flaming against Hinduism or Islam? If your belief system believes that Hindus and Muslims will not be damned, please explain your belief system to me.

Finally, what was the purpose for starting this topic? Was it to show the error of Mormons belief system?