If you read the Bible and believe what it says is true, then...?

[Hestha]

If you read the Bible and believe what it says is true to you or to reality, then does that mean you can go to heaven in the afterlife, even if you had not been baptized? What happens if someone murdered you before your baptism (for whatever reason or negligent manslaughter), so you never actually become baptized? You may believe in God and that the Bible is true and you have repented of your former sins, but you are just not baptized with water.

 

[ebia]

If you read the Bible and believe what it says is true to you or to reality, then does that mean you can go to heaven in the afterlife, even if you had not been baptized? What happens if someone murdered you before your baptism (for whatever reason or negligent manslaughter), so you never actually become baptized? You may believe in God and that the Bible is true and you have repented of your former sins, but you are just not baptized with water.

If you believe the scriptures and trust Jesus why would you not get baptised into his people?

It's like asking "if I've read the information on Australia, organised a job, secured the visa,... Can I live in Australia without getting on the plane?"

 

[Hestha]

If you believe the scriptures and trust Jesus why would you not get baptised into his people?

It's like asking "if I've read the information on Australia, organised a job, secured the visa,... Can I live in Australia without getting on the plane?"

No, I am asking a different situation. If you read the Bible and believe that it is true and repent your sins and plan to get baptized but somehow you get murdered just before your baptism date, then will you get into heaven?

It's like asking, "If I've read the information on Australia, organised a job, secured the visa,... Can I live in Australia even though some terrorists have hijacked the plane and taken my life so that I may never reach paradise?"

Also, you can actually get to Australia without boarding a plane. Just board a boat instead. Similarly, is there an alternative to water baptism? Baptizing with colored plastic balls? Baptizing with air?

 

[Publius]

If you read the Bible and believe what it says is true to you or to reality, then does that mean you can go to heaven in the afterlife, even if you had not been baptized?

What does one have to do with the other? The Bible says that baptism is a response to salvation, not a means of salvation.

No one goes to Heaven by being baptised. Likewise, no child of God is denied Heaven because he is not baptised.

So, are you implying that it is possible to be a child of God but not baptized?

No, I'm stating it overtly.

Again, we become children of God when we are born again. Baptism is a response to being born again, not a means by which to be born again.

Hmmm... can you be a secret Christian? That is, a Christian who practices his faith privately?

There is such a thing as private practice of your faith but the Christian also engages in corporate practice.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Truly you should make the effort to leave nothing undone, but water baptism is only the baptism of repentance.

In order to ascend up to heaven though you need the One Baptism from above which is the necessary baptism of being born again from above by way of God's Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 4:5
One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

But for an example to your particular question look to the thief on the cross in Luke 23:40-43

 

[ebia]

No, I am asking a different situation. If you read the Bible and believe that it is true and repent your sins and plan to get baptized but somehow you get murdered just before your baptism date, then will you get into heaven?

It's like asking, "If I've read the information on Australia, organised a job, secured the visa,... Can I live in Australia even though some terrorists have hijacked the plane and taken my life so that I may never reach paradise?"

Also, you can actually get to Australia without boarding a plane. Just board a boat instead.

You can, but it's not the norm - its what some people resort to under extreme circumstances.

Analogies are never perfect, but baptism is something one wouldn't want to not do if at all possible.

Looking for a minimum to get into heaven isn't a Christian approach

 

[Forge3]

God is on the seat of mercy.

 

[ViaCrucis]

If you read the Bible and believe what it says is true to you or to reality, then does that mean you can go to heaven in the afterlife, even if you had not been baptized? What happens if someone murdered you before your baptism (for whatever reason or negligent manslaughter), so you never actually become baptized? You may believe in God and that the Bible is true and you have repented of your former sins, but you are just not baptized with water.

God isn't some heavenly bouncer keeping people out of the Life found in Him.

In other words, if for whatever reason there are extraneous or extraordinary circumstances that are somehow put between you and Baptism, or even if you are simply unaware of the importance and meaning of Baptism, it would be silly to think God is going to stop you at the (using common modern imagery) pearly gates.

God's gracious compassion and love for us far exceeds all else, and we can trust that He is quite able to act freely in order to save regardless of any and all circumstances.

That said, Ebia's point stands concerning the question, if one does believe what has been shown in, through, and by Christ, what stops the person from receiving the gracious gift that is Baptism? The Ethiopian in the Acts rightly asks, "What prevents me from being baptized?" thus receive it, it is freely given and freely received.

The Word and Sacraments are Means of Grace, not obstacles of grace; they are there as God's instituted Means by which He graciously imparts faith and brings us into Himself and the full Life He has for us in His Son, Jesus. These are God's works, He accomplishes them for our sake and for us.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Hestha]

What does one have to do with the other? The Bible says that baptism is a response to salvation, not a means of salvation.

No one goes to Heaven by being baptised. Likewise, no child of God is denied Heaven because he is not baptised.

So, are you implying that it is possible to be a child of God but not baptized? Hmmm... can you be a secret Christian? That is, a Christian who practices his faith privately?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Similarly, is there an alternative to water baptism? Baptizing with colored plastic balls? Baptizing with air?

Christian Baptism always involves water. Though it's not only water, but rather water and the Word. It's the Word in and with the water that makes Baptism Baptism, namely the Word being God's gracious promise found in the waters of Baptism.

That said, some early Christian theologians attempted to address the question you're asking by speaking of two extraordinary "baptisms", namely the Baptism of Desire and the Baptism of Blood. The Baptism of Desire is simply this: I have not yet received Baptism, though I desire it, an extraneous circumstance and I die before receiving it, God's mercy means that the efficaciousness of Baptism is applied in spite of such circumstances. Baptism of Blood is similar, though in this case it refers to one who suffers a martyr's death without any opportunity for Baptism. Imagine a Roman guard who, upon seeing Christians dying in the arena, tosses aside his military belt and confessing Christ runs into the arena and joins the Christians there as a martyr. There was no way that he could have received Baptism, but his spilling of blood as a martyr means that there's no question that, under better circumstances, he would have been baptized.

While these concepts are probably more unique to Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox (I think) thought, the basic thrust is this: We don't put limits on God's mercy. That Baptism is the normative Means which Christ has given us to be born again does not mean that grace cannot operate in other ways unknown to us. God is, above all else, love, and He is merciful without limit, unconditionally gracious, and His desire is that we all be reconciled to Him. Therefore, He puts no roadblocks to salvation, but generously extends Himself to us freely and utterly.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

So, are you implying that it is possible to be a child of God but not baptized? Hmmm... can you be a secret Christian? That is, a Christian who practices his faith privately?

There are many Christian denominations that hold to different views of Baptism than the traditional one. These hold that Baptism is chiefly a symbolic act, something we do to identify to the community, our commitment to Jesus.

This is different than the traditional Christian view, that Baptism is a gracious act of God that draws us into Christ, thereby giving us new birth.

When traditional Christians such as Catholics, Lutherans, Anglicans, Orthodox (and many others) speak of being born again, we mean Holy Baptism.

When some other Christians, notably Baptists, Evangelicals, and many others, speak of being born again, they mean it as an interior conversion experience, generally manifest through a public confession and prayer--a decision.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Publius]

There are many Christian denominations that hold to different views of Baptism than the traditional one. These hold that Baptism is chiefly a symbolic act, something we do to identify to the community, our commitment to Jesus.

This is different than the traditional Christian view, that Baptism is a gracious act of God that draws us into Christ, thereby giving us new birth.

Please note that, by this poster's own admission, the idea that we receive the new birth by baptism is the "traditional" view, not the Biblical teaching.

When traditional Christians such as Catholics, Lutherans, Anglicans, Orthodox (and many others) speak of being born again, we mean Holy Baptism.

Whereas, when Bible believing Christians speak of being born again, we mean regeneration of the Holy Spirit, whereby the old nature is crucified with Christ and man receives a new nature.

 

[ebia]

Please note that, by this poster's own admission, the idea that we receive the new birth by baptism is the "traditional" view, not the Biblical teaching.

He correctly said its the traditional view. He correctly did not say that it's not the biblical view - it is that as well.

Whereas, when Bible believing Christians speak of being born again, we mean regeneration of the Holy Spirit, whereby the old nature is crucified with Christ and man receives a new nature.

When does that (normally) happen - in baptism where we die and rise again with Christ.

 

[Hestha]

When some other Christians, notably Baptists, Evangelicals, and many others, speak of being born again, they mean it as an interior conversion experience, generally manifest through a public confession and prayer--a decision.

-CryptoLutheran

I think the Baptist/Evangelical/many others' meaning of baptism is the creepiest. It's like they have completely changed into a different species, not recognizable anymore except by their looks. When they say "it's a change from the inside out, not just a makeover", they really mean it. It's like some supernatural force has taken over their life and told them to change their minds. Very creepy. It reminds me of Frankenstein. The birth of a new monster or "person".

The traditional view of baptism seems to be less creepy, as you don't try to explain that some strange supernatural force has taken control of you and completely change your behavior.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Whereas, when Bible believing Christians speak of being born again, we mean regeneration of the Holy Spirit, whereby the old nature is crucified with Christ and man receives a new nature.

Correct. Which occurs as an act of grace, through faith, freely given us by the Means of God's Word and Sacraments; ergo in Holy Baptism where we receive the Holy Spirit, are united to Christ, we die and rise with Christ, sharing in Him and the new life found exclusively in Him. As the Scriptures teach us.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Publius]

in Holy Baptism where we receive the Holy Spirit, are united to Christ, we die and rise with Christ, sharing in Him and the new life found exclusively in Him. As the Scriptures teach us.

Again, according to your traditions, not to scripture. The Bible is clear that baptism is a response to salvation, not a means of salvation.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Again, according to your traditions, not to scripture. The Bible is clear that baptism is a response to salvation, not a means of salvation.

I've read plenty in Scripture about Baptism doing what I wrote above; I've never found anything in Scripture that presents Baptism as a human work done as a response to salvation. Acts 2:38-41, Romans 6:3-23, Galatians 3:27-29, 1 Corinthians 12:13, 1 Peter 3:21, Colossians 2:10-14. Those being just a few of the more explicit mentions of Holy Baptism. To that we can also add John 3:3-8 and Titus 3:4-7.

I'm not a huge fan of proof-texting, but it seems to me--and apparently billions of other Christians throughout history--that what the Scriptures teach on the matter are pretty straightforward and clear.

Saying it's the traditional view is simply acknowledging what Christians have always taught and believed--as the Scriptures teach and which the Christian Church receives.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Hestha]

I've read plenty in Scripture about Baptism doing what I wrote above; I've never found anything in Scripture that presents Baptism as a human work done as a response to salvation. Acts 2:38-41, Romans 6:3-23, Galatians 3:27-29, 1 Corinthians 12:13, 1 Peter 3:21, Colossians 2:10-14.

-CryptoLutheran

I see what you mean. I remember reading Acts, and the scripture constantly refers to baptism as the work of the Holy Spirit. So, while that person is baptized, he receives the Holy Spirit, as Christians do today.

I wonder if a person can self-baptize. Heh-heh.

 

[hedrick]

Again, according to your traditions, not to scripture. The Bible is clear that baptism is a response to salvation, not a means of salvation.

The usual concern is that we not turn baptism into something magic, that saves people without faith. I don't believe Ebia would support such a view. For Luther, baptism was a means of salvation because it was water and the Word. It's basically the Word in an acted out form.

It's not magic, but it's a sign that shows something spiritual that's really happening. The actual act of baptism isn't necessarily absolutely simultaneous with the beginning of God's presence. Sometimes a person comes to faith and shows it through Baptism. Sometimes baptism is decided on by parents, and God thus claims us before we're ready to respond. But still, it's God's visible claim on us and the visible sign of our union with Christ. It's a means of grace just like the Word in any form is a means of grace. God could, of course, simply act without saying what he's doing. But making it visible to us, whether through read, spoken or acted Word is a means to help us understand and participate in what he is doing.

Ebia's description was a close paraphrase of Rom 6:1-4, read straightforwardly.

 

[Hestha]

The usual concern is that we not turn baptism into something magic, that saves people without faith. I don't believe Ebia would support such a view. For Luther, baptism was a means of salvation because it was water and the Word. It's basically the Word in an acted out form.

It's not magic, but it's a sign that shows something spiritual that's really happening. The actual act of baptism isn't necessarily absolutely simultaneous with the beginning of God's presence. Sometimes a person comes to faith and shows it through Baptism. Sometimes baptism is decided on by parents, and God thus claims us before we're ready to respond. But still, it's God's visible claim on us and the visible sign of our union with Christ. It's a means of grace just like the Word in any form is a means of grace. God could, of course, simply act without saying what he's doing. But making it visible to us, whether through read, spoken or acted Word is a means to help us understand and participate in what he is doing.

Ebia's description was a close paraphrase of Rom 6:1-4, read straightforwardly.

How can you say that baptism is not 'magic'? What do you mean by 'magic' and how do you differentiate 'magic' from 'supernatural occurrences' and 'miracles'?