If you didn't believe...

[Heber Book List]

I hope you had a pleasant night.

I am only speculating but...
It is an interesting phrase and what I am contemplating is that there is a difference between what happened to those who were gathered to their people and those who slept with their fathers.
If I have found all of the places where it reads they were gathered to their people, it goes up to Joshua and his generation.
Jdg 2:8-10 And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of the LORD, died, being an hundred and ten years old. (9) And they buried him in the border of his inheritance in Timnathheres, in the mount of Ephraim, on the north side of the hill Gaash. (10) And also all that generation were gathered unto their fathers: and there arose another generation after them, which knew not the LORD, nor yet the works which he had done for Israel.

Paul wrote that death reigned from Adam to Moses but sin was not imputed when there was no law. So if sin was not imputed then maybe that is why they were "gathered to their people" when they died.

But after Joshua and his generation, after coming into the land, the children of Israel did evil (Judges 2) and unless I am reading it wrong, after that the phrasing changes to something like they died, were buried, and/or they slept with their fathers.
But Yeshua was born under the law, died without sin, was raised from the dead and became the firstfruits of those who slept.

As for Moses, I agree with Visionary that it has something to do with the resurrection.
I wonder if Moses sin was not imputed to him since he didn't come into the land.

You have picked on one of the most contentious verses in Romans (Romans 5:14)! That will not satisfy us, if we think about this, as it goes into when sin entered the world and the theory of original sin! That will take us too far into another subject.

However, what you suggest may well be a fitting explanation. We have one account that we know must have been added after the event, and another version that has Moses chatting with G_d on the steppes of Moab, and no record of him dying, or not, so we have nothing about his death to give us a reliable story.

 

[AbbaLove]

1 Kings 2:10
So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David.

Do you think "David slept with his fathers" refers just to the fourteen generations from Abraham to David (Matthew 1:1-6, 17) or would it begin with Adam?

Matthew 27:50-53
50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.
51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split,
52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.​

Would Abraham, David and Moses be considered a saint ... if saints are those that are not guilty of a sin that leads to death (Revelation 20:14-15). What about Adam?

1 John 5:16
If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that.
​

 

[pinacled]

You have picked on one of the most contentious verses in Romans (Romans 5:14)! That will not satisfy us, if we think about this, as it goes into when sin entered the world and the theory of original sin! That will take us too far into another subject.

However, what you suggest may well be a fitting explanation. We have one account that we know must have been added after the event, and another version that has Moses chatting with G_d on the steppes of Moab, and no record of him dying, or not, so we have nothing about his death to give us a reliable story.

i didnt find any contention, sin entered the world with cain
seemed fairly simple and just to me.
Like when the Lord warned the goat judas that the poor will be with us always, and how He told the vipers the Lord desires Mercy not sacrifice.

deuteronomy 15
“If someone among you is needy, one of your brothers, in any of your towns in your land which Adonai your God is giving you, you are not to harden your heart or shut your hand from giving to your needy brother. 8 No, you must open your hand to him and lend him enough to meet his need and enable him to obtain what he wants. 9 Guard yourself against allowing your heart to entertain the mean-spirited thought that because the seventh year, the year of sh’mittah is at hand, you would be stingy toward your needy brother and not give him anything; for then he may cry out to Adonai against you, and it will be your sin. 10 Rather, you must give to him; and you are not to be grudging when you give to him. If you do this, Adonai your God will bless you in all your work, in everything you undertake — 11 for there will always be poor people in the land. That is why I am giving you this order, ‘You must open your hand to your poor and needy brother in your land.’

From: Ya‘akov, a slave of God and of the Lord Yeshua the Messiah

To: The Twelve Tribes in the Diaspora:

Shalom!

2 Regard it all as joy, my brothers, when you face various kinds of temptations; 3 for you know that the testing of your trust produces perseverance. 4 But let perseverance do its complete work; so that you may be complete and whole, lacking in nothing. 5 Now if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives to all generously and without reproach; and it will be given to him. 6 But let him ask in trust, doubting nothing; for the doubter is like a wave in the sea being tossed and driven by the wind. 7 Indeed that person should not think that he will receive anything from the Lord, 8 because he is double-minded, unstable in all his ways.

9 Let the brother in humble circumstances boast about his high position. 10 But let the rich brother boast about his being humbled; since, like a wildflower, he will pass away. 11 For just as the sun rises with the sharavand dries up the plant, so that its flower falls off and its beauty is destroyed, so too the rich person going about his business will wither away.

12 How blessed is the man who perseveres through temptation! For after he has passed the test, he will receive as his crown the Life which God has promised to those who love him. 13 No one being tempted should say, “I am being tempted by God.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, and God himself tempts no one.

14 Rather, each person is being tempted whenever he is being dragged off and enticed by the bait of his own desire.
1]Then, having conceived, the desire gives birth to sin;

2]and when sin is fully grown, it gives birth to death. 16 Don’t delude yourselves, my dear brothers.

17 Every good act of giving and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father who made the heavenly lights; with him there is neither variation nor darkness caused by turning. 18 Having made his decision, he gave birth to us through a Word that can be relied upon, in order that we should be a kind of firstfruits of all that he created. 19 Therefore, my dear brothers, let every person be quick to listen but slow to speak, slow to get angry; 20 for a person’s anger does not accomplish God’s righteousness!


As for the Lord and His great amount of discretion and Wisdom. i cannot compare to anyone.
proverbs 8
“Adonai made me as the beginning of his way,
the first of his ancient works.
23 I was appointed before the world,
before the start, before the earth’s beginnings.
24 When I was brought forth, there were no ocean depths,
no springs brimming with water.
25 I was brought forth before the hills,
before the mountains had settled in place;
26 he had not yet made the earth, the fields,
or even the earth’s first grains of dust.
27 When he established the heavens, I was there.
When he drew the horizon’s circle on the deep,
28 when he set the skies above in place,
when the fountains of the deep poured forth,
29 when he prescribed boundaries for the sea,
so that its water would not transgress his command,
when he marked out the foundations of the earth,
30 I was with him as someone he could trust.
For me, every day was pure delight,
as I played in his presence all the time,.
31 playing everywhere on his earth,
and delighting to be with humankind.

32 “Therefore, children, listen to me:
happy are those who keep my ways.
33 Hear instruction, and grow wise;
do not refuse it.
34 How happy the person who listens to me,
who watches daily at my gates
and waits outside my doors.
35 For he who finds me finds life
and obtains the favor of Adonai.
36 But he who misses me harms himself;
all who hate me love death.”

 

[Heber Book List]

i didnt find any contention, sin entered the world with cain
seemed fairly simple and just to me.
Like when the Lord warned the goat judas that the poor will be with us always, and how He told the vipers the Lord desires Mercy not sacrifice.

deuteronomy 15
“If someone among you is needy, one of your brothers, in any of your towns in your land which Adonai your God is giving you, you are not to harden your heart or shut your hand from giving to your needy brother. 8 No, you must open your hand to him and lend him enough to meet his need and enable him to obtain what he wants. 9 Guard yourself against allowing your heart to entertain the mean-spirited thought that because the seventh year, the year of sh’mittah is at hand, you would be stingy toward your needy brother and not give him anything; for then he may cry out to Adonai against you, and it will be your sin. 10 Rather, you must give to him; and you are not to be grudging when you give to him. If you do this, Adonai your God will bless you in all your work, in everything you undertake — 11 for there will always be poor people in the land. That is why I am giving you this order, ‘You must open your hand to your poor and needy brother in your land.’

From: Ya‘akov, a slave of God and of the Lord Yeshua the Messiah

To: The Twelve Tribes in the Diaspora:

Shalom!

2 Regard it all as joy, my brothers, when you face various kinds of temptations; 3 for you know that the testing of your trust produces perseverance. 4 But let perseverance do its complete work; so that you may be complete and whole, lacking in nothing. 5 Now if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives to all generously and without reproach; and it will be given to him. 6 But let him ask in trust, doubting nothing; for the doubter is like a wave in the sea being tossed and driven by the wind. 7 Indeed that person should not think that he will receive anything from the Lord, 8 because he is double-minded, unstable in all his ways.

9 Let the brother in humble circumstances boast about his high position. 10 But let the rich brother boast about his being humbled; since, like a wildflower, he will pass away. 11 For just as the sun rises with the sharavand dries up the plant, so that its flower falls off and its beauty is destroyed, so too the rich person going about his business will wither away.

12 How blessed is the man who perseveres through temptation! For after he has passed the test, he will receive as his crown the Life which God has promised to those who love him. 13 No one being tempted should say, “I am being tempted by God.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, and God himself tempts no one.

14 Rather, each person is being tempted whenever he is being dragged off and enticed by the bait of his own desire.
1]Then, having conceived, the desire gives birth to sin;

2]and when sin is fully grown, it gives birth to death. 16 Don’t delude yourselves, my dear brothers.

17 Every good act of giving and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father who made the heavenly lights; with him there is neither variation nor darkness caused by turning. 18 Having made his decision, he gave birth to us through a Word that can be relied upon, in order that we should be a kind of firstfruits of all that he created. 19 Therefore, my dear brothers, let every person be quick to listen but slow to speak, slow to get angry; 20 for a person’s anger does not accomplish God’s righteousness!


As for the Lord and His great amount of discretion and Wisdom. i cannot compare to anyone.
proverbs 8
“Adonai made me as the beginning of his way,
the first of his ancient works.
23 I was appointed before the world,
before the start, before the earth’s beginnings.
24 When I was brought forth, there were no ocean depths,
no springs brimming with water.
25 I was brought forth before the hills,
before the mountains had settled in place;
26 he had not yet made the earth, the fields,
or even the earth’s first grains of dust.
27 When he established the heavens, I was there.
When he drew the horizon’s circle on the deep,
28 when he set the skies above in place,
when the fountains of the deep poured forth,
29 when he prescribed boundaries for the sea,
so that its water would not transgress his command,
when he marked out the foundations of the earth,
30 I was with him as someone he could trust.
For me, every day was pure delight,
as I played in his presence all the time,.
31 playing everywhere on his earth,
and delighting to be with humankind.

32 “Therefore, children, listen to me:
happy are those who keep my ways.
33 Hear instruction, and grow wise;
do not refuse it.
34 How happy the person who listens to me,
who watches daily at my gates
and waits outside my doors.
35 For he who finds me finds life
and obtains the favor of Adonai.
36 But he who misses me harms himself;
all who hate me love death.”

Yes, that's one view.

 

[pinacled]

Yes, that's one view.

A Wonderful view in a great cloud of witness.
psalms 37
For the Lord loves the just
and will not forsake his faithful ones.

1 john 3
Children, don’t let anyone deceive you — it is the person that keeps on doing what is right who is righteous, just as God is righteous.

ephesians 6
Children, what you should do in union with the Lord is obey your parents, for this is right. 2 “Honor your father and mother” — this is the first commandment that embodies a promise — 3 “so that it may go well with you, and you may live long in the Land.”

 

[pinacled]

Yes, that's one view.

My point is that Adam was not decieved.
the woman was, just as ole shaul taught.

I wonder if It could be said that yakov was deceived.
There is something that gives comfort when aproaching this subject delicately. Similar to discussing the account of iyov (job).
If a person summarily descides to simply ignore the Matter of fact Statement from the Most High that iyov is blameless, then who has been lead astray.

I know what occured between yakov, and leyah after the fact.
Would anyone dare call yakov to be at fault for this, I hope not.

And then there is the outright lie of original sin.
It flies in the face against everything the All Mighty said of iyov, Noach, Enoch, Eliyahu, and a few others I can imagine that are innumerable.
How many prophets have been slain that now have clean white garments.?
It is written that there will always be the poor.
And i see this continually Through the historical lense. A generation in judges. A remnant in 1 kings, 2 kings, Romans 11
vinyards and feilds for new wine skins.
the true vine we know in others by the fruit of their branch.
This may be difficult to accept.
but I cannot ignore such an oppression upon people..And there are very serious and stern warnings from the Lord not to impute sin where there is none.
when reading romans once more, consider the generations of remnants that are in need of hearing about Yeshua.
I've already experienced the hatred of the enemy who hates both the jew, and the gentile who worship together regardless of new moon or shabbat.


"Blessed are the poor....."

 

[Heber Book List]

My point is that Adam was not decieved.
the woman was, just as ole shaul taught.

I wonder if It could be said that yakov was deceived.
There is something that gives comfort when aproaching this subject delicately. Similar to discussing the account of iyov (job).
If a person summarily descides to simply ignore the Matter of fact Statement from the Most High that iyov is blameless, then who has been lead astray.

I know what occured between yakov, and leyah after the fact.
Would anyone dare call yakov to be at fault for this, I hope not.

And then there is the outright lie of original sin.
It flies in the face against everything the All Mighty said of iyov, Noach, Enoch, Eliyahu, and a few others I can imagine that are innumerable.
How many prophets have been slain that now have clean white garments.?
It is written that there will always be the poor.
And i see this continually Through the historical lense. A generation in judges. A remnant in 1 kings, 2 kings, Romans 11
vinyards and feilds for new wine skins.
the true vine we know in others by the fruit of their branch.
This may be difficult to accept.
but I cannot ignore such an oppression upon people..And there are very serious and stern warnings from the Lord not to impute sin where there is none.
when reading romans once more, consider the generations of remnants that are in need of hearing about Yeshua.
I've already experienced the hatred of the enemy who hates both the jew, and the gentile who worship together regardless of new moon or shabbat.


"Blessed are the poor....."

As I have already said to Chunkocoal if we discuss the subject of the origin of sin it would derail this thread.

You can, of course, start your own thread on The Origin of Sin, but it is against the rules to totally derail a thread.

 

[pinacled]

As I have already said to Chunkocoal if we discuss the subject of the origin of sin it would derail this thread.

You can, of course, start your own thread on The Origin of Sin, but it is against the rules to totally derail a thread.

I was considering the very verse visionary cited in everything I've shared.
And in order to set a tone, a mutual understanding of the truth is important.

to live is Christ, to die is gain.
such a short concise sentence that can be attributed to much.

 

[pinacled]

I was considering the very verse visionary cited in everything I've shared.
And in order to set a tone, a mutual understanding of the truth is important.

to live is Christ, to die is gain.
such a short concise sentence that can be attributed to much.

For those reading.
I ask that you consider what our Lord and savior asked our mothers and fathers to do.
"Bring the children to him, "is what I heard..

I wonder if a Adam and chavah did the same.
If not, then the Torah is null.

The first command with promise as
Far as I can see was not first given on sinai.
Rather a renewal was given.

And so if a child ask for bread, would you give them a stone.?

 

[chunkofcoal]

You have picked on one of the most contentious verses in Romans (Romans 5:14)! That will not satisfy us, if we think about this, as it goes into when sin entered the world and the theory of original sin! That will take us too far into another subject.

However, what you suggest may well be a fitting explanation. We have one account that we know must have been added after the event, and another version that has Moses chatting with G_d on the steppes of Moab, and no record of him dying, or not, so we have nothing about his death to give us a reliable story.

I'm not going to derail the thread to talk about original sin.
I guess we've kind of derailed Visionary's thread anyway!

But I am still reading more about Moses....

 

[pinacled]

I'm not going to derail the thread to talk about original sin.
I guess we've kind of derailed Visionary's thread anyway!

But I am still reading more about Moses....

Who?
Tell us his mothers name.

 

[Heber Book List]

I'm not going to derail the thread to talk about original sin.
I guess we've kind of derailed Visionary's thread anyway!

But I am still reading more about Moses....

Not really, it is linked to Visionary's OP, about death and heaven.

Debating the origin of sin is a large subect - Pinacled thinks he/she has got it all worked it out, but it is not a binary answer. If he/she wants to debate it he/she can start a new thead; its not hard to do.

 

[chunkofcoal]

Not really, it is linked to Visionary's OP, about death and heaven.

Well, that is true, too.

But can we use Moses as an example? He was different in some way from when he was born - translated in the KJV as a goodly child, a proper child, and exceeding fair. He might have a different kind of Spirit - kind of like Elijah. Elijah got taken up in a whirlwind, part of his Spirit was put on Elisha, he sent a letter after he disappeared, he ended up as John the Baptist, and then showed up on the mountain with Yeshua and Moses.
But as for the rest of us?
Paul does say:
Php 1:22-23 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. (23) For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
which seems to imply that we would go to heaven when we die but why would David still be "dead" unless Peter was speaking only of physical David?
Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

 

[Heber Book List]

Well, that is true, too.

But can we use Moses as an example? He was different in some way from when he was born - translated in the KJV as a goodly child, a proper child, and exceeding fair. He might have a different kind of Spirit - kind of like Elijah. Elijah got taken up in a whirlwind, part of his Spirit was put on Elisha, he sent a letter after he disappeared, he ended up as John the Baptist, and then showed up on the mountain with Yeshua and Moses.
But as for the rest of us?
Paul does say:
Php 1:22-23 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. (23) For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
which seems to imply that we would go to heaven when we die but why would David still be "dead" unless Peter was speaking only of physical David?
Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

David seems to have managed to get off the hook once - he lost his son because of an extra marital affair - but G_d had forgiven that sin, and then he committed an unrelated sin. Chronicles tells us that David died because he counted his men, in direct disobedience to G_d's command. It should be noted that the only people seen - thus far - are the two at the Transfiguration. Now, its possible that David may yet show up in the future! He was a very different character - he was a human King, Moses wasn't.

Moses and A'aron died for the same reason, they struck the rock to get water for the people, instead of telling the rock to produce water., as G_d had told them to. It's the sin of contempt of G_d - he says do 'a' and we do 'b'. Moses was special to G_d they spoke face to face, as a friend does, although it says G_d has no favourites, and that is more evidence that Mose wasn't killed by G_d.

Moses' ultimate sin was an attempt to take G_d's place, and to make himself to be G_d, in front of all those rebellious people that G_d had to kill off, so that the next generation would see the promised land. They walked around in the desert for 40 years so that the last person of that generation, Moses, would be removed from the earth, and the task was given to Joshua to take people across the Red Sea to the promised land. If G_d had buried Moses in a particular place, they would not have obeyed Joshua, they would say they wanted Moses, after all, they might have thought, Moses was good to us and G_d liked him, you are just trying to take over. If you say Moses is dead, show us his body, and we'll believe you! As it turned out not all the tribes crossed into the promised land.

No, I think Numbers is right, G_d just took Moses off the steppes of Moab and that was it. Of course it is possible that all the phrases such as 'went to be with their fathers', or similar words, may just equate to dying; or the people who wrote the Tanach chose to use one or other phrase. It is known that several people wrote the book of Deuteronomy.

The letter is disputed that Elijah apparently sent.

 

[chunkofcoal]

David seems to have managed to get off the hook once - he lost his son because of an extra marital affair - but G_d had forgiven that sin, and then he committed an unrelated sin. Chronicles tells us that David died because he counted his men, in direct disobedience to G_d's command. It should be noted that the only people seen - thus far - are the two at the Transfiguration. Now, its possible that David may yet show up in the future! He was a very different character - he was a human King, Moses wasn't.

Moses and A'aron died for the same reason, they struck the rock to get water for the people, instead of telling the rock to produce water., as G_d had told them to. It's the sin of contempt of G_d - he says do 'a' and we do 'b'. Moses was special to G_d they spoke face to face, as a friend does, although it says G_d has no favourites, and that is more evidence that Mose wasn't killed by G_d.

Moses' ultimate sin was an attempt to take G_d's place, and to make himself to be G_d, in front of all those rebellious people that G_d had to kill off, so that the next generation would see the promised land. They walked around in the desert for 40 years so that the last person of that generation, Moses, would be removed from the earth, and the task was given to Joshua to take people across the Red Sea to the promised land. If G_d had buried Moses in a particular place, they would not have obeyed Joshua, they would say they wanted Moses, after all, they might have thought, Moses was good to us and G_d liked him, you are just trying to take over. If you say Moses is dead, show us his body, and we'll believe you! As it turned out not all the tribes crossed into the promised land.

No, I think Numbers is right, G_d just took Moses off the steppes of Moab and that was it. Of course it is possible that all the phrases such as 'went to be with their fathers', or similar words, may just equate to dying; or the people who wrote the Tanach chose to use one or other phrase. It is known that several people wrote the book of Deuteronomy.

The letter is disputed that Elijah apparently sent.

That David will be raised is pretty much a given!
But when? Does what Paul wrote eliminate the possibility that some will be raised before others?
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

John the Baptist didn't include himself in "the bride", (and wouldn't that be they that are Christ's at His coming?), when he said:
Joh 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
So could there be 'friends of the bridegroom' raised first? Like maybe the seven shepherds and eight principal men? (Micah 5:5)

I know we are only speculating but with God all things are possible so sometimes it's just awesome to speculate!

 

[Dkh587]

Davis was a very different character - he was a human King, Moses wasn't.

Why do you think Moses wasn’t a king?

In terms of function, what qualifies David as a king and not Moses? What did David do that Moses didn’t do?

Moses ruled over Israel and taught/enforced the Torah. He led the nation through wars and battles. What else does he need, in terms of function, to be a king?

If you look at his function and role in the nation of Israel, Moses was a king.

 

[Heber Book List]

Why do you think Moses wasn’t a king?

In terms of function, what qualifies David as a king and not Moses? What did David do that Moses didn’t do?

Moses ruled over Israel and taught/enforced the Torah. He led the nation through wars and battles. What else does he need, in terms of function, to be a king?

If you look at his function and role in the nation of Israel, Moses was a king.

David was appointed as King. Moses wasn't. G_d didn't want Kings, he only agreed when the people demanded one, his idea was that he would reign over them through the prophets.

 

[pinacled]

Someone mentioned seven shepherds and eight principled men.

Amen.
Give a portion to seven and eight.

Nothing like a healthy diet of hot coals and cold water.
If only someone were here to help others to remember how many beams are brought to build the mishkan.
If only there were men who show courage.

Blessings Always

 

[chunkofcoal]

Heber Book List - I think I found the answer to my own question. That word for "order" in 1 Cor. 15:23 is interesting.

 

[pinacled]

David was appointed as King. Moses wasn't. G_d didn't want Kings, he only agreed when the people demanded one, his idea was that he would reign over them through the prophets.

Carefully.
You already made the mistake of calling a servant of the Lord a he/she.
I advise you not to speak or sit where you should not.

This thread topic is about increase if I remember correctly.
And when all provisions are in order vayikra will become clear.
As I've shared before.
His yolk is easy.
Salt is easily separated from water.
So as the clouds gather moisture the salt reamins.

Do you disagree?