If you didn't believe...

[gadar perets]

That means your argument that 'once' was a fact, is not a fact and was actually an analogy or a metaphor.

Why an analogy or metaphor? Just so you can say Elijah didn't die?

 

[Heber Book List]

All men die at least once as a fact. Some may die more than once as in Lazarus' case. However, no one that lived prior to Yeshua can bypass death altogether. That is the payment for sin.

1) Except Elijah and Enoch

2) No one after Yeshua's death can bypass death altogther.

 

[Heber Book List]

Why an analogy or metaphor? Just so you can say Elijah didn't die?

It was a analogy to Yeshua, as we saw in the Greek.

 

[gadar perets]

2) No one after Yeshua' death can bypass death altogther.

I worded it the way I did in case you brought up John 11:26 - And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

 

[gadar perets]

It was a analogy to Yeshua, as we saw in the Greek.

Remind me where I saw that in Greek.

 

[Heber Book List]

Remind me where I saw that in Greek.

Heb 9:27-28. Using the analogy of humans dying once to explain Yeshua dying once (as a human) and then being resurrected.

 

[Heber Book List]

I worded it the way I did in case you brought up John 11:26 - And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

We shall all die a human death, we shall not all die a spiritual death, as believers do not die. Two different meanings to the word death.

 

[chunkofcoal]

We shall all die a human death, we shall not all die a spiritual death, as believers do not die. Two different meanings to the word death.

So what happens to those who are alive when He returns if everyone has to die?

 

[Heber Book List]

So what happens to those who are alive when He returns if everyone has to die?

They will face judgement the same as everyone else.

 

[chunkofcoal]

They will face judgement the same as everyone else.

Without dying?

 

[chunkofcoal]

Elijah didn't die & Moses' report of his death and burial was written by an unknown writer - or did Moses record his own death.

You are right that Elijah didn't die, but it was written of Moses that he would be "gathered unto" his people. That phrase is used for Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Aaron, and Moses.

Yeshua said:
Mat 22:31-32 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, (32) I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

So then the Patriarchs are not "dead", and if what I'm thinking that phrase means, then neither is Moses or Aaron "dead". They "died" physically and were "gathered unto" their people. Moses "eye was not dim nor his natural force abated" when he "died" at 120. So then was that "natural force" that was within Moses, was Moses (?), with Yeshua and Elijah on the mount?

 

[Heber Book List]

Without dying?

That you will have to wait and find out

 

[Heber Book List]

You are right that Elijah didn't die, but it was written of Moses that he would be "gathered unto" his people. That phrase is used for Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Aaron, and Moses.

Yeshua said:
Mat 22:31-32 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, (32) I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

So then the Patriarchs are not "dead", and if what I'm thinking that phrase means, then neither is Moses or Aaron "dead". They "died" physically and were "gathered unto" their people. Moses "eye was not dim nor his natural force abated" when he "died" at 120. So then was that "natural force" that was within Moses, was Moses (?), with Yeshua and Elijah on the mount?

I would respectfully ask you to read what has been said on this thread - it will save me re-writing it all Then you can ask question(s) if you have any.

 

[chunkofcoal]

I would respectfully ask you to read what has been said on this thread - it will save me re-writing it all Then you can ask question(s) if you have any.

I just quoted your post because I agree with you that Elijah and Moses were there and it wasn't a vision, and I respect your insights.

I'm just contemplating how Moses, who had died, got there.

 

[visionary]

I just quoted your post because I agree with you that Elijah and Moses were there and it wasn't a vision, and I respect your insights.

I'm just contemplating how Moses, who had died, got there.

Jude tells us that Michael was sent by God to deal in some way with the body of Moses, which God Himself had buried after Moses’ death (Deuteronomy 34:5-6). Various theories have been put forth as to what this struggle over Moses’ body was about. One is that Satan, ever the accuser of God’s people (Revelation 12:10), may have resisted the raising of Moses to eternal life on the grounds of Moses’ sin at Meribah (Deuteronomy 32:51) and his murder of the Egyptian (Exodus 2:12). I believe it was over the resurrection of Moses. Why else is Michael and Satan disputing about the body of Moses?

As far as the preeminence of Yeshua's resurrection from the dead, it is via promise that those who were resurrected before His resurrection were by promise, and so also are we by that same promise which is now fact. He, who knows beginning from end, did choose to take Enoch, Elijah, and Moses to heaven. The visitation with Yeshua on the Mount of transfiguration should not be considered a "vision", for our Lord worked in concrete reality and not figments of promises. Moses and Elijah visits were a great comfort, to shore up and reconfirm our Lord in His purpose.

 

[Heber Book List]

I just quoted your post because I agree with you that Elijah and Moses were there and it wasn't a vision, and I respect your insights.

I'm just contemplating how Moses, who had died, got there.

Had Moses died, and been buried as the Bible says, is the big question. Moses couldn't have written the section on his death, so that part was written by someone else. Is it true, or just added in by someone, trying to explain where Moses body was buried. Some scholars agree that Moses didn't die, and some others believe he did.

I believe that G_d could bring him to be at such an event as the Transfiguration, whether he died an earthly death or not, just as he will bring the two witnesses before the end of the world to lie, dead, in Jerusalem.

 

[Heber Book List]

Jude tells us that Michael was sent by God to deal in some way with the body of Moses, which God Himself had buried after Moses’ death (Deuteronomy 34:5-6). Various theories have been put forth as to what this struggle over Moses’ body was about. One is that Satan, ever the accuser of God’s people (Revelation 12:10), may have resisted the raising of Moses to eternal life on the grounds of Moses’ sin at Meribah (Deuteronomy 32:51) and his murder of the Egyptian (Exodus 2:12). I believe it was over the resurrection of Moses. Why else is Michael and Satan disputing about the body of Moses?

As far as the preeminence of Yeshua's resurrection from the dead, it is via promise that those who were resurrected before His resurrection were by promise, and so also are we by that same promise which is now fact. He, who knows beginning from end, did choose to take Enoch, Elijah, and Moses to heaven. The visitation with Yeshua on the Mount of transfiguration should not be considered a "vision", for our Lord worked in concrete reality and not figments of promises. Moses and Elijah visits were a great comfort, to shore up and reconfirm our Lord in His purpose.

In Numbers 27:1ff G_d tells Moses to appoint a successor and a whole load of other stuff, but Moses doesn't die, at all. This why some scholars believe he didn't die, and that he simply went to be with his people (whatever that means).

 

[chunkofcoal]

Taking another look at it, it is also written Moses would 'sleep with his fathers' so both phrases are used for him. Interesting.

 

[Heber Book List]

Taking another look at it, it is also written Moses would 'sleep with his fathers' so both phrases are used for him. Interesting.

Sorry for delay in answering but night time intervened!

Yes, that is interesting phrase. It may be their way of saying that believers do not die - that is that those who do G_d's will do not die, as we believe it to be the case today. But it doesn't explain the disappearance of Moses body and why Numbers has no end, he is just standing on the steppes of Moab, talking to G_d. Yet Numbers 27:12 records that G_d said to Moses after has he seen the promised Land, he would sleep with his fathers, just as A'aron was.

 

[chunkofcoal]

Sorry for delay in answering but night time intervened!

Yes, that is interesting phrase. It may be their way of saying that believers do not die - that is that those who do G_d's will do not die, as we believe it to be the case today. But it doesn't explain the disappearance of Moses body and why Numbers has no end, he is just standing on the steppes of Moab, talking to G_d. Yet Numbers 27:12 records that G_d said to Moses after has he seen the promised Land, he would sleep with his fathers, just as A'aron was.

I hope you had a pleasant night.

I am only speculating but...
It is an interesting phrase and what I am contemplating is that there is a difference between what happened to those who were gathered to their people and those who slept with their fathers.
If I have found all of the places where it reads they were gathered to their people, it goes up to Joshua and his generation.
Jdg 2:8-10 And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of the LORD, died, being an hundred and ten years old. (9) And they buried him in the border of his inheritance in Timnathheres, in the mount of Ephraim, on the north side of the hill Gaash. (10) And also all that generation were gathered unto their fathers: and there arose another generation after them, which knew not the LORD, nor yet the works which he had done for Israel.

Paul wrote that death reigned from Adam to Moses but sin was not imputed when there was no law. So if sin was not imputed then maybe that is why they were "gathered to their people" when they died.

But after Joshua and his generation, after coming into the land, the children of Israel did evil (Judges 2) and unless I am reading it wrong, after that the phrasing changes to something like they died, were buried, and/or they slept with their fathers.
But Yeshua was born under the law, died without sin, was raised from the dead and became the firstfruits of those who slept.

As for Moses, I agree with Visionary that it has something to do with the resurrection.
I wonder if Moses sin was not imputed to him since he didn't come into the land.