if you buy cheap clothes at the store are you sinning for CRUELTY?

miamited

Ted
Supporter
Oct 4, 2010
13,243
6,313
Seneca SC
✟705,807.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Hi gustav,

Look, convicting of sin is the Holy Spirit's job and I don't think you're proclaiming the truth of God in this. Personally, in reading your post here, I can understand why many non-believers look at some christian ideas and scratch their heads and wonder what kinds of nuts those christians are. Believe me, they have enough ammo for that argument, you don't need to give them more.

I mean honestly, according to your chain of guilt, someone who works for Hinkel and makes fine cutlery, but one of them may be used to commit a murder, then all of us who buy Hinkle knives are guilty of murder. I think you'd have a hard time getting the Holy Spirit to agree with you on that or your position regarding clothing here.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted
 
Upvote 0

Gregory Thompson

Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.
Supporter
Dec 20, 2009
28,362
7,742
Canada
✟721,286.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
Perhaps the continuation of the indentured servitude system via the american prison system would be a good target first (take the plank out of your own eye before taking some sawdust out of someone elses)
 
Upvote 0

Serving Zion

Seek First His Kingdom & Righteousness
May 7, 2016
2,335
900
Revelation 21:2
✟223,022.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Hi gustav,

Look, convicting of sin is the Holy Spirit's job and I don't think you're proclaiming the truth of God in this. Personally, in reading your post here, I can understand why many non-believers look at some christian ideas and scratch their heads and wonder what kinds of nuts those christians are. Believe me, they have enough ammo for that argument, you don't need to give them more.

I mean honestly, according to your chain of guilt, someone who works for Hinkel and makes fine cutlery, but one of them may be used to commit a murder, then all of us who buy Hinkle knives are guilty of murder. I think you'd have a hard time getting the Holy Spirit to agree with you on that or your position regarding clothing here.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted
Hi Gustav,

I am just saying this so that you know there is an opposite view in Christianity. I do support your reasoning: by choosing to buy goods that we know have been produced by having forced terrible, hellish conditions upon workers (Matthew 7:12), then we are literally giving power to those who create those hellish conditions. We are creating hell for those workers, by proxy (although that is not our primary intention, it has become our sin by making that conscious decision while knowing it - James 4:17, Hebrews 10:26-27).

On the other hand, as @HereIStand has mentioned, if there are no ethical alternatives to obtain the goods, or the alternatives are unethical themselves by overcharging for those goods, then the responsibility of who has the sin shifts from the consumer onto the local producers, because it is their sin (greed, sloth etc) that encourages the consumer's sin of greed.

Of course, it is beyond the strength of a typical consumer (in the present day), to expect that they will be able to enforce ethics of producers, so this is why the responsibility rightfully falls upon legislators. But for those consumers with a conscience who have already become aware that they are supporting oppression to make life hell, so they might save a couple of dollars (out of sight, out of mind..), let their extravagance torment them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sarah G
Upvote 0

seeking.IAM

Episcopalian
Supporter
Feb 29, 2004
4,235
4,910
Indiana
✟931,189.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
I wonder what becomes of those women and children in India if they cannot earn $5.00 a month making clothes? What, then, must they go without? Food? Clothes? Shelter? Does one's refusal to buy such products hurt them in the short run while possibly helping their future generations in the long run? And, what is the greater good?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

paul1149

that your faith might rest in the power of God
Supporter
Mar 22, 2011
8,460
5,268
NY
✟674,364.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
because those clothes are fabricated by poor children and women in india and poor asian countries where the producers pay 5 dollars per month to their workers (slaves) without caring about their health and nothing
Take away that $5 per month and the people will be worse off. Better to give whatever extra money you have to charities that support the poor workers, including by providing the means for more self-sufficiency.
 
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,279
8,499
Milwaukee
✟410,918.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
because those clothes are fabricated by poor children and women in india and poor asian countries where the producers pay 5 dollars per month to their workers (slaves) without caring about their health and nothing

This should be added to our constitution.

With silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”
 
Upvote 0

want-love

Well-Known Member
Dec 17, 2016
464
162
26
united states
✟36,489.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Hi gustav,

Look, convicting of sin is the Holy Spirit's job and I don't think you're proclaiming the truth of God in this. Personally, in reading your post here, I can understand why many non-believers look at some christian ideas and scratch their heads and wonder what kinds of nuts those christians are. Believe me, they have enough ammo for that argument, you don't need to give them more.

I mean honestly, according to your chain of guilt, someone who works for Hinkel and makes fine cutlery, but one of them may be used to commit a murder, then all of us who buy Hinkle knives are guilty of murder. I think you'd have a hard time getting the Holy Spirit to agree with you on that or your position regarding clothing here.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted
i am not proclaiming this as the truth of god, i am making more a question because i am not 100% sure
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Almost there

Well-Known Member
Oct 24, 2017
3,571
1,152
60
Kentucky
✟44,542.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
because those clothes are fabricated by poor children and women in india and poor asian countries where the producers pay 5 dollars per month to their workers (slaves) without caring about their health and nothing
Which ones, specifically?
 
Upvote 0

Almost there

Well-Known Member
Oct 24, 2017
3,571
1,152
60
Kentucky
✟44,542.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
google it
i cannot show you youtube documental that show the horrific conditions these persons live because they are copyrighted content
I'd need more verification than a youtube video.
 
Upvote 0

want-love

Well-Known Member
Dec 17, 2016
464
162
26
united states
✟36,489.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I'd need more verification than a youtube video.
don't simplify it as "a youtube video" it's a documental by national geographic with a lot of people working on it, with images about the misery the people live in their countries
 
Upvote 0

Almost there

Well-Known Member
Oct 24, 2017
3,571
1,152
60
Kentucky
✟44,542.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
don't simplify it as "a youtube video" it's a documental by national geographic with a lot of people working on it, with images about the misery the people live in their countries
If you can link me to a video, I'll watch it.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

miamited

Ted
Supporter
Oct 4, 2010
13,243
6,313
Seneca SC
✟705,807.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
i am not proclaiming this as the truth of god, i am making more a question because i am not 100% sure

Hi gustav,

Ok! That's accepted. I would just be careful what I label as sin. Your position seems to carry sin from the one who actually commits the act down through everyone else that might ever have any relationship without any knowledge of the sin, as a sinner also. I don't find that to be a clear teaching of the Scriptures.

Secondly, I don't think one can make the sure complaint that just because a particular piece of clothing may be cheaper than another piece of clothing, that is is necessarily made under the conditions that you describe. People in other countries live under a different economic system than we do. In some nations, $10/day as a wage is perfectly acceptable. Bread there may only costs 10¢ a loaf. An apartment or other type housing unit only costs $50/month. As others have pointed out, you may actually be doing more harm than good for those of other nations by working to stop people from buying such goods.

China is a good example. The average annual wage in China is just a bit over $4,500. Here in the U.S. we'd starve on such a wage, but that is not the case in China. That's about $375/month. It breaks down to about $80/week. Now, the $4,500 annual income is an average and so there are people making more and people making less, but someone getting $10/day in China isn't likely starving as they would be in the U.S. Yes, someone sewing together 100 shirts/day in China could make a fairly decent income based on the Chinese economy and that shirt could likely be sold in the U.S. for $10-$15. So, you're going to tell people not to buy that shirt?

Now yes, absolutely the guy who owns the shirt manufacturing company is likely making more money. But, we have that same scenario here in the U.S. The CEO and CFO and other high up owners and operators of companies make hundreds of thousands of if not a few million dollars per year. However, the guy putting the bolts in the little holes to put together whatever product the company sells is likely only making 40-50 thousand dollars/year. So, it's all relative. That's not to say that there aren't manufacturers who use cheap child or 'slave' labor, but be careful in identifying such companies based solely on the cost of the product that they sell.

The reality is really just a bit more complicated than that.

Real life example: I was in Mexico many years ago and had a flat tire. I went to a shop that had a sign out that they repaired tires and took the tire in and a very happy toothless lady who seemed to be the sole owner and operator of the shop fixed the tire for me. When I asked how much? She said it was about $2.00 in American dollars. I was actually pleasantly amazed that I could get a tire repaired for so little and paid her more than she asked for because of my understanding of the U.S. economy. But, I didn't threaten her with bodily harm or rant and scream at her. I merely asked her how much and she said $2.00. I couldn't possibly understand how she could do it for so cheap, but she seemed perfectly happy with the charge and apparently knew she could buy food or take care of her business for that amount. So, we just need to understand that the world is not the United States of America.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted
 
  • Like
Reactions: want-love
Upvote 0

Almost there

Well-Known Member
Oct 24, 2017
3,571
1,152
60
Kentucky
✟44,542.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Hi gustav,

Ok! That's accepted. I would just be careful what I label as sin. Your position seems to carry sin from the one who actually commits the act down through everyone else that might ever have any relationship without any knowledge of the sin, as a sinner also. I don't find that to be a clear teaching of the Scriptures.

Secondly, I don't think one can make the sure complaint that just because a particular piece of clothing may be cheaper than another piece of clothing, that is is necessarily made under the conditions that you describe. People in other countries live under a different economic system than we do. In some nations, $10/day as a wage is perfectly acceptable. Bread there may only costs 10¢ a loaf. An apartment or other type housing unit only costs $50/month. As others have pointed out, you may actually be doing more harm than good for those of other nations by working to stop people from buying such goods.

China is a good example. The average annual wage in China is just a bit over $4,500. Here in the U.S. we'd starve on such a wage, but that is not the case in China. That's about $375/month. It breaks down to about $80/week. Now, the $4,500 annual income is an average and so there are people making more and people making less, but someone getting $10/day in China isn't likely starving as they would be in the U.S. Yes, someone sewing together 100 shirts/day in China could make a fairly decent income based on the Chinese economy and that shirt could likely be sold in the U.S. for $10-$15. So, you're going to tell people not to buy that shirt?

Now yes, absolutely the guy who owns the shirt manufacturing company is likely making more money. But, we have that same scenario here in the U.S. The CEO and CFO and other high up owners and operators of companies make hundreds of thousands of if not a few million dollars per year. However, the guy putting the bolts in the little holes to put together whatever product the company sells is likely only making 40-50 thousand dollars/year. So, it's all relative. That's not to say that there aren't manufacturers who use cheap child or 'slave' labor, but be careful in identifying such companies based solely on the cost of the product that they sell.

The reality is really just a bit more complicated than that.

Real life example: I was in Mexico many years ago and had a flat tire. I went to a shop that had a sign out that they repaired tires and took the tire in and a very happy toothless lady who seemed to be the sole owner and operator of the shop fixed the tire for me. When I asked how much? She said it was about $2.00 in American dollars. I was actually pleasantly amazed that I could get a tire repaired for so little and paid her more than she asked for because of my understanding of the U.S. economy. But, I didn't threaten her with bodily harm or rant and scream at her. I merely asked her how much and she said $2.00. I couldn't possibly understand how she could do it for so cheap, but she seemed perfectly happy with the charge and apparently knew she could buy food or take care of her business for that amount. So, we just need to understand that the world is not the United States of America.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted
Yep. What a lot of folks don't understand is that you can live on NO money in a lot of countries. $5 a month, or even a day, sounds absurd in the US, but in many places you can live on less than that. It has to do with expectations and what it actually takes to "live" in a place.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

miamited

Ted
Supporter
Oct 4, 2010
13,243
6,313
Seneca SC
✟705,807.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Hi gustav,

Here's a wiki site listing the 'minimum' wage in several countries. Now, I don't actually know where you're getting your information that some people are only making $5/month and you'd need to provide some evidence of a clothing manufacturer that is only paying their workers $5/month to support your claim. I long ago learned that 'just because I say so' isn't proof.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted
 
Upvote 0