If you are Israel

[usexpat97]

We are different parts of the body. Everything Paul said about how we should view/not view different parts of the body applies to male/female, et. al.

 

[FireDragon76]

I don't believe we are Israel, rather, we are the true Israel (the anti-type of the type). Another way to put it: we are the eschatological Israel of Old Testament prophecy.

Indeed. The Israel of God, not man.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

All it takes is you list out the 12 tribes in Numbers, and list them side-by-side with Revelation. They don't match. Anything you study or say beyond that are just efforts to explain why that is, but the fact remains they don't match.

I had heard someone mention that the order of the 12 tribes in Revelation forms a prayer.
Might have been a Hebrew Jew.......

12 Tribes of Revelation 7
1. Judah = "I will praise the Lord" 2. Reuben = "He has looked on me" 3. Gad = "Granted good fortune" 4. Asher = "Happy am I" 5. Naphtali = "My wrestling" 6. Manasseh = "Making me to forget" 7. Simeon = "God hears me" 8. Levi = "Joined to me" 9. Issachar = "Purchased Me" 10. Zebulun = "Dwelling" 11. Joseph = "God will addto me" 12. Benjamin = "Son of His right hand"
=======================
OT
Leah: 1 Reuben 2 Simeon 3 Levi 4 Judah 9 Issachar 10 Zebulun
Rachel 11 Joseph 12 Benjamin

Bilhah [Rachel's maid] 5 Dan 6 Naphtali
Zilpah [Leah's maid] 7 Gad 8 Asher

12 Original Tribes
1. Reuben = "He has looked upon me" 2. Simeon = "God hears me" 3. Levi = "Joined to me" 4. Judah = "I praise the Lord" 5. Dan = "God has judged me and heard my voice" 6. Naphtali = "my wrestling" 7. Gad = "granted good fortune" 8. Asher = "happy am I" 9. Issachar = "purchased me" 10. Zebulun = "a dwelling" 11. Joseph = "God will add to me" 12 Benjamin = "son of His right hand"

 

[Alithis]

A topic of misunderstandings enfolded in misunderstanding and kneeded into one doughy mound of misunderstandings

 

[Copperhead]

Correct... while male and female exist in the physical realm, they do not have any "positional" difference spiritually in God's eyes. This of course also applies to Jew/Gentile. There is no difference positionally, covenantally, or spiritually in Gods eyes today.

Well, the covenants made with Jacob (Israel) were national/corporate in nature. Unlike the situation within the body in which each person is in covenant relationship with the Lord. There is no corporate / national covenant with the Body of Messiah. Paul is clear that the Body is not a nation. However, there are still several covenants that pertain to Jacob / Israel on a corporate level that are still in effect. Not for their sake, as we all know they couldn't keep their act together if they tried, but for the sake of the Patriarchs and for YHVH's name sake.

Indeed, on an individual level, there is no difference positionally before the Lord. But on a corporate level, there still is a difference between Hebrew and Gentile. And Joel 3 and Matthew 25 bear that out. When Messiah sets foot on the earth and assumes command of everything, the nations will be judged on how they treated the Hebrew people. So for that to be the case, there must be a distinction.

 

[usexpat97]

I had heard someone mention that the order of the 12 tribes in Revelation forms a prayer.

Sounds like someone's writing songs directly out of Scripture. Okay, good...meditate on the Law of the Lord day and night.

 

[usexpat97]

Indeed, on an individual level, there is no difference positionally before the Lord. But on a corporate level, there still is a difference between Hebrew and Gentile. And Joel 3 and Matthew 25 bear that out. When Messiah sets foot on the earth and assumes command of everything, the nations will be judged on how they treated the Hebrew people

If you do that, then "there is no Jew or Gentile in Christ" has no meaning. You rationalized Scripture away to nothingness. And no, nations will be judged based on how they treat PEOPLE. Your neighbor. The poor. Children. The least of these.

 

[Copperhead]

If you do that, then "there is no Jew or Gentile in Christ" has no meaning. You rationalized Scripture away to nothingness. And no, nations will be judged based on how they treat PEOPLE. Your neighbor. The poor. Children. The least of these.

If you think I rationalized Joel 3 and Matthew 25, I really could care less. We are positionally equal before the Lord and you have no more final authority on what the Word says than anyone else. I think you might want to read Joel 3 again and see what the nations are being judged for....

Joel 3:1-2 “For behold, in those days and at that time, When I bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will also gather all nations,
And bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat;
And I will enter into judgment with them there
On account of My people, My heritage Israel,
Whom they have scattered among the nations;
They have also divided up My land.

And Yeshua affirmed this in Matthew 25. Being of the tribe of Judah, the Hebrew people are His brethren in the flesh. And it is very clear in Matthew 25 that the nations are being judged on how they treated His brethren. Matter of fact, He gave the discourse from the very spot overlooking the valley of Jehoshaphat that He will judge those nations in the future. Couldn't be much clearer. You have a tough time making the case I am rationalizing away the scripture. Be careful when you accuse the brethren, lest you find that what you are accusing someone else of is not what you are in fact guilty of. Sometimes it is best to take a breath and think something thru before taking pot shots.

 

[jgr]

If you think I rationalized Joel 3 and Matthew 25, I really could care less. We are positionally equal before the Lord and you have no more final authority on what the Word says than anyone else. I think you might want to read Joel 3 again and see what the nations are being judged for....

Joel 3:1-2 “For behold, in those days and at that time, When I bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will also gather all nations,
And bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat;
And I will enter into judgment with them there
On account of My people, My heritage Israel,
Whom they have scattered among the nations;
They have also divided up My land.

And Yeshua affirmed this in Matthew 25. Being of the tribe of Judah, the Hebrew people are His brethren in the flesh. And it is very clear in Matthew 25 that the nations are being judged on how they treated His brethren. Matter of fact, He gave the discourse from the very spot overlooking the valley of Jehoshaphat that He will judge those nations in the future. Couldn't be much clearer. You have a tough time making the case I am rationalizing away the scripture. Be careful when you accuse the brethren, lest you find that what you are accusing someone else of is not what you are in fact guilty of. Sometimes it is best to take a breath and think something thru before taking pot shots.

Jesus identifies His brethren.

Matthew 12
46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

No mention or implication of only "Hebrew people" or "brethren in the flesh".

Rather, "whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven".

Irrespective of their physical DNA.

Only in respect of their spiritual DNA.

Faith and obedience.

 

[Toney exlore]

Seems several people on this board believe they are Israel and boast .If so,then tell us which one of these tribes you are of.I myself would be interested iin the song you sing .

So which tribe are you from?

Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel:
Revelation 7:5 From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben 12,000, from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
Revelation 7:6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000, from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000, from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
Revelation 7:7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000, from the tribe of Levi 12,000, from the tribe of Isaachar 12,000,
Revelation 7:8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000, from the tribe of Joseph 12,000, and from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

If you are Israel,which tribe are you of?

Abraham is are father spiritual because he believed god .the bible says the true jew is the one inwordly.the bible says to the jew first thin the Greek the 144000 is the remnant of God's people saved in the end times that's my belief. If I'm reading your post right I don't believe just 144000 people will just be saved from the start of the new covenant to the end

 

[Copperhead]

Jesus identifies His brethren.

Matthew 12
46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

No mention or implication of only "Hebrew people" or "brethren in the flesh".

Rather, "whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven".

Irrespective of their physical DNA.

Only in respect of their spiritual DNA.

Faith and obedience.

Then try to explain away Joel 3 since you think you are on a roll. A close reading of both Joel 3 and Matthew 25:31-46 are talking about the same thing. If you choose to bury your head in a bucket about that, well enjoy the view. And denial is not a river in Egypt.

 

[JacksBratt]

And in your scenario above, the glorified Christ sits on his throne in the Jerusalem temple for this millennial reign, and requires all humans to travel there to see him, all males be physically circumcised and render blood animal sacrifices directly at his feet for atonement of their sins and acceptance by him, nullifying his “once for all” sacrifice of himself on the cross, rendering his sacrifice wholly ineffectual from that point forward.

Yeah... nope.

Can you copy and paste, in quotes, where I said this?

 

[JacksBratt]

Folks seem to always avoid the rest of what Paul said.. there is neither male or female. I dare any male who is going to take this all literally to walk in and use the women’s lavatory at their fellowship this next week while the ladies are also using it, with the excuse that there is neither Jew/Gentile male/female. The Jew / Gentile thing is in a spiritual sense only within the Body of Messiah, not in the physical realm.

Can you please post the chapter and the verse of which you are referring?

 

[HatGuy]

This is weird

 

[Copperhead]

Can you please post the chapter and the verse of which you are referring?

Galatians 3:26-28 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus

If you don't have a Bible or search software, the Blue Letter Bible online is free and has a wealth of translations, search tools, and commentaries. I suggest you take advantage of them as opposed to making others do your homework for you.

 

[JacksBratt]

Galatians 3:26-28 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus

If you don't have a Bible or search software, the Blue Letter Bible online is free and has a wealth of translations, search tools, and commentaries. I suggest you take advantage of them as opposed to making others do your homework for you.

All that this is saying is that we are all "humans" and nobody is segregated from anyone else by any means other than that we are human.

I'm not sure what, exactly, you are trying to say, in reference to my post, with this information about male and female?

I don't want to assume, but are you suggesting that, in eternity, we will not have any designation of gender?

 

[jgr]

Then try to explain away Joel 3 since you think you are on a roll. A close reading of both Joel 3 and Matthew 25:31-46 are talking about the same thing. If you choose to bury your head in a bucket about that, well enjoy the view. And denial is not a river in Egypt.

I'm just quoting Jesus. He's the One on the Roll.

If Joel 3 is talking about the same thing as Matthew 25, then Jesus in Matthew 25 is providing the explanatory interpretation of Joel 3.

That's how Scripture works.

Dispensational denial notwithstanding.

 

[parousia70]

Well, the covenants made with Jacob (Israel) were national/corporate in nature. Unlike the situation within the body in which each person is in covenant relationship with the Lord. There is no corporate / national covenant with the Body of Messiah.

Oh, really?

1 Peter 2:9
9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own; that you should show forth the praises of him who has called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:

Was Peter Joking?

However, there are still several covenants that pertain to Jacob / Israel on a corporate level that are still in effect. Not for their sake, as we all know they couldn't keep their act together if they tried, but for the sake of the Patriarchs and for YHVH's name sake.

And you can identify the folks today who are a party to those corporate covenants.... how?

Indeed, on an individual level, there is no difference positionally before the Lord. But on a corporate level, there still is a difference between Hebrew and Gentile.

Name one Hebrew alive today who is a party to those covenants.
Just one will do.
Is it you?
Is it me?

Ho do I know it's not me? Especially when Peter says above that I am a party to the National/Corporate covenant of the Living God?

 

[parousia70]

Can you copy and paste, in quotes, where I said this?

IF you believe Ezekiel 38-40 describes the Millennial Temple where Christ will physically sit and reign from for 1000 earth years sometime in our future, then what I mentioned are indeed the core tenants of that belief, and you obviously hold them.

But perhaps I'm wrong and you don't believe Ezekiel 38-40 is Future to us?

 

[Copperhead]

Oh, really?

1 Peter 2:9
9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own; that you should show forth the praises of him who has called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:

Was Peter Joking?



And you can identify the folks today who are a party to those corporate covenants.... how?



Name one Hebrew alive today who is a party to those covenants.
Just one will do.
Is it you?
Is it me?

Ho do I know it's not me? Especially when Peter says above that I am a party to the National/Corporate covenant of the Living God?

It is not in my pay grade to determine who is who. Neither is it in yours to question who is who. The Lord made the promises, it is up to Him to work it out.

But just like Elijah thought there were none left, the Lord told him that He had 7000 in reserve. Seems wise to just believe what the Lord said and let Him work out the details.

After all, Abraham was declared righteous just by believing the Lord without focusing on how the Lord would pull it off. I rather like that example.