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If Yeshua was the sacrificial Lamb of God

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by Lulav, Dec 29, 2018.

  1. Lulav

    Lulav Everyone will give an account Staff Member Administrator CF Staff Trainer Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    And also the Atonement Goat....in order for it to be as the practice leading up to this was done, where was the blood sprinkled and by whom?

    Furthermore, the lambs were slaughtered by the Israelites, privately by each family, and the priests poured the blood on the base of the altar.​
     
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  2. Quid est Veritas?

    Quid est Veritas? In Memoriam to CS Lewis

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    I've always understood Jesus' scourging as the sprinkling of blood. This was likely with leather thongs with pieces of metal attached to its end, so quite a bloody business. It occured close to Gabbatha where Pilate judged Him, and which likely implies a paved area - likely in or close to the outer court of the Temple, near the Praetorium or the Antonia Fortress. This would mean pouring out of blood at the foot or entrance to Temple Mount. He was then lead away as the Scapegoat for Crucifixion outside the city.
     
  3. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Hebrews 9:13-20 J.B. Phillips New Testament (PHILLIPS)
    11-14 For now Christ has come among us, the High Priest of the good things which were to come, and has passed through a greater and more perfect tent which no human hand has made (for it was no part of this world of ours). It was not with goats’ or calves’ blood but with his own blood that he entered once and for all into the holy of holies, having won for us men eternal reconciliation with God. And if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a burnt heifer were, when sprinkled on the unholy, sufficient to make the body pure, then how much more will the blood of Christ himself, who in his eternal spirit offered himself to God as the perfect sacrifice, purify your souls from the deeds of death, that you may serve the living God!

    The death of Christ gives him power to administer the new agreement
    15-20 Christ is consequently the administrator of an entirely new agreement, having the power, by virtue of his death, to redeem transgressions committed under the first agreement: to enable those who obey God’s call to enjoy the promises of the eternal inheritance. For, as in the case of a will, the agreement is only valid after death. While the testator lives, a will has no legal power. And indeed we find that even the first agreement of God’s will was not put into force without the shedding of blood. For when Moses had told the people every command of the Law he took calves’ and goats’ blood with water and scarlet wool, and sprinkled both the book and all the people with a sprig of hyssop, saying: ‘This is the blood of the covenant which God has commanded you’.

    J.B. Phillips New Testament (PHILLIPS)
    The New Testament in Modern English by J.B Phillips copyright © 1960, 1972 J. B. Phillips. Administered by The Archbishops’ Council of the Church of England. Used by Permission.
     
  4. Dkh587

    Dkh587 David דויד Supporter

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    In God’s temple in heaven. Messiah was not a literal lamb or goat that was sacrificed according to the Levitical priesthood.
     
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  5. Dkh587

    Dkh587 David דויד Supporter

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    This is the key verse right here.

    Messiah didn’t go to the earthly temple to offer his blood - he went to heaven to offer his blood in the truly Holy of Holies. The temple on earth and Levitical priesthood pointed to what Messiah would do in Heaven in God’s temple.
     
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  6. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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  7. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Jesus is Real, Eternally Echad with ABBA YAHWEH, not parabolic.
    Jesus was born a man and lived as a man on earth, for real.
    Jesus was crucified, died and buried, it happened.
    Jesus was raised from the dead by the Father
    and ascended into heaven - not a parable.
    HIS BLOOD was the price of atonement for each one HE atoned for. FOR REAL, FOREVER.
     
  8. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    Hello! We are talking about Christ being the sacrificial Lamb.
     
  9. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    1 Corinthians 5:7
    Get rid of the old hametz, so that you can be a new batch of dough, because in reality you are unleavened. For our Pesach lamb, the Messiah, has been sacrificed.
     
  10. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    This part is very important as well;

    Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
    Heb 9:24 For Messiah is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
    Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
    Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.​
     
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  11. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    Speaking of the scapegoat (Day of Atonement) let's consider the following ...

    Leviticus 4:7
    (Day of Atonement)
    And the priest shall put some of the blood on the horns of the altar of sweet incense
    before the LORD, which is in the tabernacle of the congregation; and shall pour all
    the blood of the bullock at the bottom of the altar of the burnt offering, which is at
    the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

    No reference is made (Ezek 45, LXX for vv. 18-20) for atonement for sins. This is truly noteworthy in that no mention of the Day of Atonement occurs in the prophetic portrayal (or symbolical) of Ezekiel’s Temple. Yeshua as High Priest has already fulfilled the Day of Atonement for those chosen (Matthew 22:14) Jewish and non-Jewish Believers that Yeshua chooses to Tabernacle with ... 1 Corinthians 6:15-20

    Numbers 21:8-9 and
    John 3:14-15
    Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life.​
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 3, 2019
  12. tampasteve

    tampasteve Lutheran Messianic Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    ^^^ These 100%. To think that Yeshua was a literal sacrifice as many Christians do would be unacceptable to Jewish sacrificial law and against the prohibition of human sacrifice. Further, we would do well to remember the Jewish idea that the righteous suffer to bring atonement for the wicked. Yeshua was the perfectly righteous man that could take on our suffering and sinfulness.
     
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  13. FreeinChrist

    FreeinChrist CF Advisory team Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    ADVISOR HAT

    That is enough folks. Please stick with the topic of the OP. ​
     
  14. Grumman Tomcat

    Grumman Tomcat The LORD is my Pilot Staff Member Administrator Supporter

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    MOD HAT ON
    Thread cleaned due to off topic posting.
    Please stick to the topic of the OP. CF's Statement of Faith is not up for debate.

    MOD HAT OFF
     
  15. Lulav

    Lulav Everyone will give an account Staff Member Administrator CF Staff Trainer Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    Sorry I haven't gotten back to this.

    As far as that interpretation, it would not be in accordance to how God himself said sacrifices should be made. His blood being 'sprinkled' on the pavement I don't think would count. Also he was still alive at the time.

    However the reason I spoke of the Lamb of God as well as the Goat of the Atonement is because I believe he was both. But those two sacrifices are not only done 6 months apart but the blood was put in a different place. I'm looking to reconcile this fact.

    The blood of the Passover lamb on 'THE' Passover in Egypt was placed upon the doorposts of the family's house for protection. Later when the memorial to that time was celebrated the head of each family slaughtered the Lamb and the priests collected the blood and it was now sprinkled on the Altar. This altar was

    A passage in the Talmud (dating from the period of the Second Temple [515 BCE – 70 CE]) describes the Temple ritual on the 14th of Nisan. The description reflects the procedure in the time of the First Temple:

    The paschal lamb was slaughtered in three groups… when the first group entered and the Temple court was filled, the gates of the Temple were closed. A tekiah, teruah, and again a tekiah were then blown on the shofar. The priests stood in rows, and in their hands were basins of silver and basins of gold. … An Israelite slaughtered his offering and the priests caught the blood. The priest passed the basin to his fellow priest, and he to his fellow, each receiving a full basin and giving back an empty one. The priest nearest to the altar tossed the blood against the base of the altar. While this ritual was performed the Levites sang the Hallel [Talmud Pesachim 64a]


    Josephus records contemporary Passover celebrations in which he estimates that the participants who gathered in Jerusalem to perform the sacrifice in the year 65 CE were “not less than three million” (Josephus, Wars, 2:280). The Talmud (Pesachim 64b) similarly records:

    King Agrippa once wished to take a census of the hosts of Israel. He said to the high priest, “Cast your eyes on the Passover offerings.” He took a kidney from each, and 600,000 pairs of kidneys were found there, twice as many as those who departed from Egypt, excluding those who were unclean and those who were on a distant journey, and there was not a single paschal lamb for which more than ten people had not registered; and they called it: “The Passover of the dense throngs.”

    PASSOVER

    upload_2019-1-4_18-26-18.png


    DAY OF ATONEMENT -- YOM HaKIPPURIM

    upload_2019-1-4_18-32-50.png
    “The priest who has been anointed and ordained to serve as priest in place of his father shall make expiation. He shall put on the linen vestments, the sacral vestments. He shall purge the inmost Shrine; he shall purge the Tent of Meeting and the altar; and he shall make expiation for the priests and for all the people of the congregation ” (Lev. 16:29-33).

    The Torah emphasizes these rituals of purging or cleansing the sanctuary and the altar, and the priests’ atonement for themselves and for the people. Kaparah (atonement) means to cleanse that which has been defiled or contaminated. The sanctuary was a place of holiness and of ritual purity, which was tainted over the years by human beings who entered it in states of ritual impurity. If the sanctuary was to function as a holy place, as the dwelling place of the Holy One, it had to be purged of this impurity.

    The ritual of Atonement found in Leviticus 16 and 23 began with Aaron bathing and putting on special garments (v. 4), then he sacrificed a bull for a sin offering for himself and his family (v. 6, 11). The blood of the bull was to be sprinkled on the ark of the covenant. Then Aaron was to bring two goats, one to be sacrificed “because of the uncleanness and rebellion of the Israelites, whatever their sins have been” (v. 16), and its blood was sprinkled on the ark of the covenant. The other goat was used as a scapegoat. Aaron placed his hands on its head, confessed over it the rebellion and wickedness of the Israelites, and sent the goat out with an appointed man who released it into the wilderness (v. 21). The goat carried on itself all the sins of the people, which were forgiven for another year (v. 30).

    So the Pasache Lamb's blood was first placed on the doorposts of each familys house. Later the lamb was brought to the temple and slaughtered by the family member and the blood caught by the priests and splashed at the base of the altar which was in the Inner court.

    The goat chosen for atonement (that G-d also chose through Aaron or the HP following him) was slaughtered and the blood then was taken into the Holy of Holies and splashed seven times on the mercy seat.
     

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  16. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    They are reconciled by the fact that Yeshua could not be sacrificed on both days. YHWH chose Passover for Messiah's death, but that one death fulfills sacrifices on multiple days.
     
  17. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    Since the temple is a depiction of the working of salvation, we can see that the progress of the sprinkling from the altar of sacrifice to the Most Holy as a progress in the application. Taking it to the heart for the final cleansing in the final atonement, is part of the completion of the purpose of the sacrifice to begin with. Sacrificed for sin, atonement, and final redemption, all are a part of the separating sin from sinner process.
     
  18. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    Good connection of events.
     
  19. Lulav

    Lulav Everyone will give an account Staff Member Administrator CF Staff Trainer Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    Quite. But the thing is the Blood still needed to be put in it's proper place.

    I'm working on a list of requirements for each sacrifice to see where they match up and where they differ.

    Any help would be appreciated.

    So far it's interesting to note a few things about what is called the Egyptian Passover, in other words the original one while in Egypt.

    This was a feast given before leaving Egypt and slavery.
    It was also given before the 'law' was handed down.
    And of course this means it was given before there was any atonement made for Israel.

    I'll add to this list as contributions are posted.

    Passover
    • Did not require the laying on of hands on the victim
    • The victim could be either a lamb or a kid (goat) of the first year
    • The victim was eaten with the unleavened bread
    • The lamb or kid was to be eaten by the family inside the house and before midnight

    Yom Kippur
    • The High Priest did lay hands on the victim to place the sins of the Nation upon it
    • The Victims here had to be both identical goats for the sin offereing. There was also a Ram for a burnt offering as well.
    • The offerings of the bull and the goat were not to be eaten, only the blood was used to cleanse the Holy place and the altar afterwards.

    The bull of sin offering and the goat of sin offering whose blood was brought in to purge the Holy place shall be taken outside the camp; and their hides, flesh, and dung shall be consumed in fire.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2019
  20. Lulav

    Lulav Everyone will give an account Staff Member Administrator CF Staff Trainer Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    Sounds good until you read Leviticus 16

    1 And the L-RD spake unto Moses after the death of the two sons of Aaron, when they offered before the L-RD, and died;
    2 And the L-RD said unto Moses, Speak unto Aaron thy brother, that he come not at all times into the holy place within the vail before the mercy seat, which is upon the ark; that he die not: for I will appear in the cloud upon the mercy seat.
    3 Thus shall Aaron come into the holy place: with a young bullock for a sin offering, and a ram for a burnt offering.........
    5 And he shall take of the congregation of the children of Israel two kids of the goats for a sin offering, and one ram for a burnt offering.
    6 And Aaron shall offer his bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and make an atonement for himself, and for his house.
    7 And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the L-RD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
    8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the L-RD, and the other lot for the scapegoat.
    9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which theL-RD'S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering.
    10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before theL-RD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness. Leviticus 8:14-17)

    11 And Aaron shall bring the bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and shall make an atonement for himself, and for his house, and shall kill the bullock of the sin offering which is for himself: 12 And he shall take a censer full of burning coals of fire from off the altar before the L-RD, and his hands full of sweet incense beaten small, and bring it within the vail: 13 And he shall put the incense upon the fire before the L-RD, that the cloud of the incense may cover the mercy seat that is upon the testimony, that he die not: 14 And he shall take of the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it with his finger upon the mercy seat eastward; and before the mercy seat shall he sprinkle of the blood with his finger seven times. 15 Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat: 16 And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness....................18 And he shall go out unto the altar that is before the L-RD, and make an atonement for it; and shall take of the blood of the bullock, and of the blood of the goat, and put it upon the horns of the altar round about. 19 And he shall sprinkle of the blood upon it with his finger seven times, and cleanse it, and hallow it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel.

    So the order seems to be

    First the Bull to cleanse the Holy of Holies for the HP and his family
    Then the goat for the L-RD this is making atonement for the Holy Place
    Then when he comes out he goes to the altar to make atonement for that
    First the blood of the bullock and then the blood of the goat.


    The atonement for the people appears to be the goat for Azazel.
     
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