If we don't see miracles are we in the right place?

[Anguspure]

I am reading the book of Acts with my daughter at the moment and there are a couple of things that stand out that have made me question the place that we are in as Christians in the West.

We often ask why we don't see the signs of the Gospel in our Churches and a number of theological theories have been put forward.

But it is obvious that the Apostles preached the Gospel and that the miracles were given as a sign (evidence) of the truth of the Gospel where ever they went in accordance with the wishes of the Spirit.

God does not expect people to believe the gospel without an appropriate level of evidence and He supplies that evidence where He wishes the gospel to be preached.

The Apostles can also be observed to have maintained a staunch attitude of offering the gospel, accompanied by miracles but then moving on, shaking the dust off their feet if they encountered a town that rejected the Truth.

So it occurs to me that if we don't see the miracles then perhaps we are in the wrong place preaching the gospel.

Should we continue to offer the gospel to an unbelieving town when it is clear that the Spirit is not in the preaching as evidenced by a lack of miracles?

Should we hang around in places where God has not sent us?

Should we be a bit more ready to abandon groups of people to their fate so as to move to a place where God is working?

 

[longwait]

If you preach to a crowd maybe you could atleast touch one hurting soul and snatch them from a certain eternal damnation. Too much ease in life makes people numb to the things of God. That's the problem with the west.

 

[Anguspure]

If you preach to a crowd maybe you could atleast touch one hurting soul and snatch them from a certain eternal damnation.

This has been my raison-d-etre during 25 years at sea with no opportunity, a very difficult relationship with God (due to my own failings) and no success as far as the gospel is concerned. So I do wonder if we miss something with this reasoning.

Too much ease in life makes people numb to the things of God. That's the problem with the west.

I do agree. So for those of us who are not numb, are we really following the Spirit?

 

[Tolworth John]

God does not expect people to believe the gospel without an appropriate level of evidence and He supplies that evidence where He wishes the gospel to be preached

And what is an apropriate level of evidence?

You're faith with all the problems you have is evidence of the supernatural power of God in your life.

Have you studied John ch 9. It is a remarkable example of a miracle that is investigated by the local authorities, who when their bias is challenged reject the evidence before them.

Why doesn't God give us signs and wonders? Because people will not be convinced against their biases.

 

[Anguspure]

And what is an apropriate level of evidence?

You're faith with all the problems you have is evidence of the supernatural power of God in your life.

Have you studied John ch 9. It is a remarkable example of a miracle that is investigated by the local authorities, who when their bias is challenged reject the evidence before them.

Why doesn't God give us signs and wonders? Because people will not be convinced against their biases.

I agree with what you affirm. That for those who have hearts biased against a person no amount of evidence is sufficient.

However I would argue that the appropriate level of evidence takes into account and builds on the bias of the heart.

For example if I know that a lady has her heart turned towards me (assuming I was single) and trusts me a little bit then I know that deepening that trust I will deepen our relationship beyond that of a mere friendship.

I deepen that trust by giving her the evidence of my trustworthiness, not because I need to prove anything to myself or maybe even to her (although perhaps she is watching), but because I wish her to become my wife who can trust me at a deeper level than anybody else.

John Lennox talks about faith in this way: A husband on wedding day has faith enough to trust in his wife, without knowing everything. We don’t know everything about God, but we have enough to get started – and as the relationship develops, so does the trust. Trusting in relationships is multi levelled. Shared interests, etc – multi-orbed. Faith in God is too. There is evidence of all kinds. Can be built up.

BTW I see your insight about my continued faith in God in spite of the situation I find myself being evidence in itself. This has been a passing thought of mine in the past but I have put it away quickly, out of repulsion for myself, and because of the sinking feeling that perhaps that is what God has for me.

 

[Tolworth John]

A husband on wedding day has faith enough to trust in his wife, without knowing everything.

A false comparason. It is more like a guy trying to chat up a girl who doesn't like anything about him.

The evidence for God is all around us but atheists etc reject it because of their bias against God.

 

[Anguspure]

A false comparason. It is more like a guy trying to chat up a girl who doesn't like anything about him.

Really? I don't know. Have never chatted up a girl, full stop.

I have however encountered the sort of grooming that paedophiles use with children that builds trust until they are ready to pounce, but this is simply a evil twisting of a relational principle that should not be judged because evil men choose to use it.

What I do know is that no person (who is not naive or "in Love") trusts another without some evidence of trustworthiness any more than they would trust a staircase without some evidence of sturdiness, or a boat without some evidence of seaworthiness.

The evidence for God is all around us but atheists etc reject it because of their bias against God.

I agree, I am not trying to say that there is insufficient evidence around us in order to believe in our Father. I myself consider it a certainty that God exists because of the evidence presented.

I also realise that most who I live with fall into the category of wilful ignorance about God.

But I also think that there are many who are not.

What I am concerned about is the evidence for the Gospel. That when I say that God raised Christ from the dead and fills His followers with the Spirit of God Himself to bring light to the world: What evidence can I present to these people, that the Spirit is within?

What of the indications in the Bible as written by the Apostles that signs and wonders will accompany those who are working for the Lord?

When the crowds heard Philip and saw the signs he performed, they all paid close attention to what he said.

But when Anguspure blethered about his God to the guys on the ship they found no reason whatsoever to consider that he wasn't a lunatic.

What of Christ's own statement: If I had not done among them the works no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin?

Does the failure of Christ within me to perform the works among them, that no on else did, exonerate them from sin?

 

[SkyWriting]

I am reading the book of Acts with my daughter at the moment and there are a couple of things that stand out that have made me question the place that we are in as Christians in the West.

We often ask why we don't see the signs of the Gospel in our Churches and a number of theological theories have been put forward.

But it is obvious that the Apostles preached the Gospel and that the miracles were given as a sign (evidence) of the truth of the Gospel where ever they went in accordance with the wishes of the Spirit.

You can see these things yourself daily. But it takes effort on your part.
Answered Prayer - Steps 1, 2, 3 | Christian Forums

 

[Tolworth John]

What evidence can I present to these people, that the Spirit is within?
What of the indications in the Bible as written by the Apostles that signs and wonders will accompany those who are working for the Lord?

You can present the evidence of a man struggling to live a Godly life, who even thoug he fails keeps on picking himselve up and trying again.

You present the evidence of a man at peace with God, trusting in him even when life is terrible.

You present the evidence of a man who loves and cares for those around him, above and beyond what others expect.

The total of all that you do in your life is a powerful witness to something those without Christ do not know and it is up to you to talk about what and why you believe.

As for signs and wonders.
Look at Christian history how people have come to know God through the centuaries without any signsor wonders.

 

[Phil 1:21]

If we don't see miracles are we in the right place?

It's not a question of being in the right place, but the right frame of mind. Not everyone who witnessed Jesus' miracles believed in Him. Some even nailed Him to a cross.

 

[Anguspure]

You can present the evidence of a man struggling to live a Godly life, who even thoug he fails keeps on picking himselve up and trying again.

You present the evidence of a man at peace with God, trusting in him even when life is terrible.

You present the evidence of a man who loves and cares for those around him, above and beyond what others expect.

The total of all that you do in your life is a powerful witness to something those without Christ do not know and it is up to you to talk about what and why you believe.

So you say and for me this is enough.
But the ones that I know (including members of my own family) rightly point out that there is nothing special about any of this stuff.
These are not works that "no one else did," there are plenty of examples of godless men or men from other religious groups that live good moral lives like this (except for the peace with God bit) and I know a few of them.
There are even examples of men who come from terrible backgrounds with depression and drugs involved who turn their whole lives around to live the rest of it in peace and prosperity.
One does not have to believe in the Resurrection to live a good life, so why should anybody believe in the Resurrection at all?
All I have to offer at that point is a wordy argument and a subjective encounter with the risen one.

As for signs and wonders.
Look at Christian history how people have come to know God through the centuaries without any signsor wonders.

Blessed are they, I guess. But what I am probing here is why do we hang around, powerlessly in such dark places, where the others there are only hell bent on extinguishing any light that they see?
Are we really listening to the Spirit when his power is not evident? Or have we grieved Him by not moving to where He is clearly working?

 

[Anguspure]

You can see these things yourself daily. But it takes effort on your part.
Answered Prayer - Steps 1, 2, 3 | Christian Forums

Thanks for this information. I'm not quite sure how to use it except that I recognise the theme of laying down ones life and allowing God to do the resurrection.

 

[Anguspure]

It's not a question of being in the right place, but the right frame of mind. Not everyone who witnessed Jesus' miracles believed in Him. Some even nailed Him to a cross.

It is true what you are saying.
But I do not see any evidence of the supernatural works that nobody else has done working in the whole region of 90 000 people and 10 000 km2 where I live and I do not see anything like it in the whole of the ocean where I am working. There is nobody around that anybody would even nail to a cross in this way, so is anybody in the right frame of mind? Have we really lost our connection with the Spirit so deeply?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Perhaps we could define "miracle". I'd argue that we see miracles happen all the time--the Gospel is being preached and God is saving sinners. That's a miracle.

-CryptoLutheran