if we are sons of God, are we gods too?

[Monk Brendan]

If you read the NIV of the Bible, you notice that during this time "gods" meant jewels or rings or earrings. He is telling us we are jewels if we follow Him, for He values us because we are His.

This is incorrect. "God" means some sort of being that has some power over a portion of Nature. Apollo was the "god" of the sun. Dianna was the "goddess" of the moon. Dagon, Baal, and the rest were "gods" of stone and metal, that were worshiped as supreme beings. Jewels, rings, earrings, and the rest are ornaments, or, if you will, GAUDS. A gaud is just that, an ornament, but this time over the top, ostentatious, as in a gaudy dress, or a gaudy woman.

 

[RGW00]

This is incorrect. "God" means some sort of being that has some power over a portion of Nature. Apollo was the "god" of the sun. Dianna was the "goddess" of the moon. Dagon, Baal, and the rest were "gods" of stone and metal, that were worshiped as supreme beings. Jewels, rings, earrings, and the rest are ornaments, or, if you will, GAUDS. A gaud is just that, an ornament, but this time over the top, ostentatious, as in a gaudy dress, or a gaudy woman.

Yes I agree with you. But if you look in the Bible, during that time it was spelled gods rather than gauds. I'm just saying that there are times in the Bible where they can mistakenly think it's an actual god.

 

[Monk Brendan]

I'm just saying that there are times in the Bible where they can mistakenly think it's an actual god.

But I also mentioned Baal, and Dagon, and all the other false gods.

What God is calling us to do is to be more and more like Him. Did He not command us to "be perfect?" We are called to become like God, a process that in Eastern Christianity is called THEOSIS, or being divinized.

 

[SolomonVII]

if we are in the body of christ...

What does the Bible mean by “you are gods” / "ye are gods" in Psalm 82:6 and John 10:34? <-- this article just say "we are not god because we are not gods" but doesnt offer valid arguments

The ancient belief was that the rulers were somehow more than human, and those born into the world as servants and beggars were somewhat less than human, barely more human than animals really. The OT, in Isaiah's luciferian depiction of the King of Tyre is openly sarcastic and mocking of this attitude. But the Psalms as above are more accepting of that belief, and Jesus as quoted by John uses the belief in a fully literal sense to justify his claims to Divinity, as revealed in his several "I AM" statements of self-revelation.

What people were finding offensive about Jesus in an age where the birth stories of divine Augustine and Christ were basically the same stories, and where the heads of the Roman households held themselves to be gods over the slaves that served them, was not that someone might hold himself to be God, but that someone of Jesus' social status would dare to do so. This was what deemed to be subversive. Jesus was of poor birth. Many Jews aware of his biography deemed him to be nothing more than the child of a Roman soldier who raped the nothing peasant girl, Mary.

I think that the early Christian formula applies here, 'that God became man so that man might become God". God is our destiny. The proper context for understanding such an astonishing claim is that last will be first and first last. Those who assume themselves to be gods are not the children of the blessing; those that humble themselves or are otherwise humbled, are the children of this extraordinary blessing.

 

[Traveling teacher]

We are sons of God through the blood of Jesus.....
Be careful with any term that exalts a man....
JEsus said call no one your father....
Matthew 23:9
I believe some churches Jehovahs witness use this term "you are gods" quite a bit in a distorted way.....
Remeber God aposses the proud.....
GOd told them not to establish kings in the OT.....
The original sin
"You can be like God"

 

[Haipule]

How do you know this? Paul makes no reference in the first five verses of his letter to the Ephesians to people with him in prison. And even if "us" did refer to such people, why can't "us" also refer more broadly to all the Christian believers to whom Paul is writing? What good reason do you have to restrict "us" as you have?



Well, you make this assertion about Ephesians 1:5, but you offer no good reason why we must always restrict "we" and "us" in Paul's letters as you suggest. Certainly, in English these words may be used to refer to those in the company of the speaker and/or to a distant audience the speaker is addressing.

Paul always gives us his 1st personal plural pronoun reference(s) in verse 1 or 2 in his epistles. Romans and Ephesians are the exceptions.

In Romans we do not find out that Tertius actually wrote the letter being dictated from Paul in the presence of many until chapter 16.

However, throughout the book he go's from "we" to "you-all":

through whom we(Paul and friends) have received grace(joyous-favor) and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name's(fame’s) sake, among whom you(the recipients of the book) also are the called(-out-ones) of Jesus Christ; Rom 1:5-6 NASB

Paul does mention others in Ephesians 6 were only Tychius is mentioned.

Look at Ephesians 2:8 "you have been saved" notice how he did not include himself.

And Ephesians 2:10 "For we are His workmanship," notice how he did not include you.

Paul's others Epistles are easier to figure out:

Paul, [an]apostle (not sent from men nor through the agency of man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised Him from(out-from)[ the]dead(-ones), and all the brethren who are with me, To the churches(called-out-ones) of Galatia: Gal 1:1-2 NASB

Paul, and all the brethren who were with him, either as contributing writers or as witnesses, wrote Galatians.

But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel(well-message) contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I(Paul) say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel(well-message) contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed! Gal 1:8-9 NASB

Making the correct references to pronouns and 'to-be' verbs is vital to understanding 2 Corinthians. Especially chapter 4.

 

[aiki]

Paul always gives us his 2nd personal plural pronoun reference(s) in verse 1 or 2 in his epistles. Romans and Ephesians are the exceptions.

If there is an exception to your "always" then your "always" isn't always, is it?

In any case, you haven't explained why in every instance where Paul uses "us" or "we" it must be understood that he is speaking only of himself and those with him. Certainly, in the first chapter of Ephesians, this is not how Paul writes. He is very clearly using "we" and "us" and "our" to refer both to himself and those to whom he is writing.

Ephesians 1:1-6
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:

Paul makes very plain here who he is addressing and to whom his following words apply.

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,

Since Paul makes no distinction between himself and his audience to this point, it is quite appropriate and reasonable to understand his words as applying equally to himself and to those to whom he is writing. There is no "we" and "you" here in the application of Paul's words, only "us."

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

Paul is describing here what is true for himself and his audience. Nothing in what he writes here indicates he is not intending his words to apply to those to whom he is writing. So, we have a pretty glaring exception to your assertion about Paul's use of "us," "we," and "our" in his various letters to the Early Church. Are there others? Yes. Maybe, then, you ought to reassess your certainty and rethink your understanding of Paul's use of pronouns.

 

[aiki]

Look at Ephesians 2:8 "you have been saved" notice how he did not include himself.

And Ephesians 2:10 "For we are His workmanship," notice how he did not include you.

Ephesians 2:1-4
1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

Paul begins by describing the former condition of the Ephesian believers ("you") but he soon includes himself in his description, uniting himself with his audience and in so doing applying what follows to both.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,

Now, Paul's "us" doesn't refer only to those in his immediate company but to both himself and those to whom he is writing.

Ephesians 2:7-10
7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Paul goes back and forth in this section addressing the Ephesians specifically and then both he and Ephesians together.

 

[Tree of Life]

It is fairly obvious that we are not gods.

 

[Haipule]

If there is an exception to your "always" then your "always" isn't always, is it?

In any case, you haven't explained why in every instance where Paul uses "us" or "we" it must be understood that he is speaking only of himself and those with him. Certainly, in the first chapter of Ephesians, this is not how Paul writes. He is very clearly using "we" and "us" and "our" to refer both to himself and those to whom he is writing.

Ephesians 1:1-6
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:

Paul makes very plain here who he is addressing and to whom his following words apply.

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,

Since Paul makes no distinction between himself and his audience to this point, it is quite appropriate and reasonable to understand his words as applying equally to himself and to those to whom he is writing. There is no "we" and "you" here in the application of Paul's words, only "us."

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

Paul is describing here what is true for himself and his audience. Nothing in what he writes here indicates he is not intending his words to apply to those to whom he is writing. So, we have a pretty glaring exception to your assertion about Paul's use of "us," "we," and "our" in his various letters to the Early Church. Are there others? Yes. Maybe, then, you ought to reassess your certainty and rethink your understanding of Paul's use of pronouns.

There is no exception! The exception is that he didn't identify his 1st person plural from the beginning! He does so in every epistle except Romans and Ephesians.

Do you not think that the person who delivered this letter told them whom all it was from?

The problem is you get to pick and choose whom he's referring to. Please then, why did he say "and you-all also" in Ephesians 1:13? Your as confusing as 2 Corinthians 4:

Therefore, since we(as if it refers to you and I) have this ministry, as we received mercy, we do not lose heart, but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake. 2 Cor 4:1-5 NASB​

If we read 2 Corinthians without giving the personal pronouns their proper reference, then we have misjudged the Corinthian church as being antinomian. Why? They would be right up there with the Philippians, but First and Second Corinthians shows us that they are not at that level of development and therefore, are not a part of the “we”:

Now let’s read it with the correct reference given us in 2 Corinthians 1:1--Paul and Timothy.

Therefore, since we(PT) have this ministry, as we(PT) received mercy, we(PT) do not lose heart, but we(PT) have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves(PT) to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 2 Cor 4:1-2 NASB​

Do you see how much it changes the meaning? I always found 2 Corinthians rather difficult to read because it didn’t seem to flow. It keeps going from “we” to “you” which never really made a lot of sense. Frustrated one day, I went backwards to see just who this “we” was. I found it in chapter 1 verse 1, Paul and Timothy--thank God! I then reread the entire book! I was absolutely floored by the intimacy of the relationship Paul and Timothy experienced with the church(called-out-ones) at Corinth. 2 Corinthians is an extremely intimate book which shows us the intimate relationship a pastor has with his flock. And reveals to us why pastor-teachers lives sometimes look so different from our own.

For we(PT) who live are constantly being delivered over to death for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our(PT) mortal flesh. So death works in us(PT), but life in you(congregation--that’s a huge difference). But having the same spirit(breath) of faith(noun), according to what is written, "I BELIEVED(trusted), THEREFORE I SPOKE," we(PT) also believe(trust), therefore we(PT) also speak, knowing that He who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us(PT) also with Jesus and will present us(PT) with you(congregation). For all things are for your(congregation) sakes, so that the grace(joyous favor, thriving joy) which is spreading to more and more people may cause the giving of thanks to abound to the glory of God. 2 Cor 4:11-15 NASB​

The entire book goes from “we” to “you”. My suggestion is that everyone read 2 Corinthians with the proper personal pronoun references which he never breaks from. It will be like reading 2 Corinthians for the first time. And, you’re welcome.

Now, if you think that somehow Paul changed the way he writes for one book: you are the one making an exception--not me!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

It is fairly obvious that we are not gods.

Yeah. I have not yet been able to pick up a mountain and toss it.

The Mountain in Matt 21 question
The Mountain in Matt 21 question

Matthew 21:21 Jesus answering said to them, "Verily I am saying to ye, if ever ye may be having Faith, and no ye may be doubting, not only the of the fig-tree ye shall be doing, but even-ever to this Mountain, ye may saying, 'Be being lifted up! and be being cast! into the Sea', it shall be becoming"; [Revelation 8:8]

Hebrews 12:18 For ye came not near to the Mountain touched and scorched with fire, and to blackness, and darkness, and tempest......[Matt 21:21/Reve 8:8]

Revelation 8:8 And the second messenger did sound, and as it were a great Mountain [OC/Mt Sinai?] with fire burning was cast into the Sea,.......[Matt 21:21/Hebrews 12:18]

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

 

[Haipule]

It is fairly obvious that we are not gods.

Oh yeah? Jesus told us that if we had faith the size of a mustard seed we could replant trees into the sea.

I once commanded a tree NOT to move! To date, that tree has not budged! Oh yeah, Oh yeah, I got powers!!!

 

[Haipule]

Ephesians 2:1-4
1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

Paul begins by describing the former condition of the Ephesian believers ("you") but he soon includes himself in his description, uniting himself with his audience and in so doing applying what follows to both.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,

Now, Paul's "us" doesn't refer only to those in his immediate company but to both himself and those to whom he is writing.

Ephesians 2:7-10
7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Paul goes back and forth in this section addressing the Ephesians specifically and then both he and Ephesians together.

NEVER! You don't get to pick!

 

[Haipule]

Ephesians 2:1-4
1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

Paul begins by describing the former condition of the Ephesian believers ("you") but he soon includes himself in his description, uniting himself with his audience and in so doing applying what follows to both.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,

Now, Paul's "us" doesn't refer only to those in his immediate company but to both himself and those to whom he is writing.

Ephesians 2:7-10
7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Paul goes back and forth in this section addressing the Ephesians specifically and then both he and Ephesians together.

Why would Paul make such broad assumptions about people he may not have ever met being in prison? Why would he make such broad based assumptions about their growth? That is certainly the case to the Romans whom he never even met! Like Romans 8:28 "For WE know..." How would he know they knew? He was teaching what Paul and the others knew: not what the Romans know!

 

[Haipule]

Yeah. I have not yet been able to pick up a mountain and toss it.

The Mountain in Matt 21 question
The Mountain in Matt 21 question

Matthew 21:21 Jesus answering said to them, "Verily I am saying to ye, if ever ye may be having Faith, and no ye may be doubting, not only the of the fig-tree ye shall be doing, but even-ever to this Mountain, ye may saying, 'Be being lifted up! and be being cast! into the Sea', it shall be becoming"; [Revelation 8:8]

Hebrews 12:18 For ye came not near to the Mountain touched and scorched with fire, and to blackness, and darkness, and tempest......[Matt 21:21/Reve 8:8]

Revelation 8:8 And the second messenger did sound, and as it were a great Mountain [OC/Mt Sinai?] with fire burning was cast into the Sea,.......[Matt 21:21/Hebrews 12:18]

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

View attachment 204687

Aloha L'il Lamb. Have you checked out my debate here on this thread regarding Paul's usage of personal pronouns?

Now, I know how much you study. I discovered Paul's use of personal pronouns 10yrs ago and I'm sure these things have NEVER been taught before me. I am so grateful to have been given this understanding and honored to be the one God chose to share it with others!

When I first discovered it through studying 2 Corinthians, a pastor in bible class said, "Please turn to 2 Corinthians chapter 4". I cringed in my seat knowing he was going to needlessly put us all on a guilt trip!

 

[want-love]

They will "die like men, and fall like any one of the princes."

didnt jesus die being god?

The oldest lie of Satan is that we can be as God. This was his temptation to Eve in Eden. She fell for it and people are still falling for it today.

...

So, again, we are not gods. Not even close.

i dont want to be a god superior to the most high

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The story about King Herod giving such a thrilling speech to the masses at Caesaria during the Early Church period, where people were so enthralled they started calling him a god, and so he contracted a loathsome sickness involving worms eating up his insides and he died in agony. I think that story is a lesson to us about treating any hero, Christian or secular, as a god. The signs of this type of hero worship is when thousands will attend a meeting when BigName John the Prophet is preaching, and when LittleKnown Harry from the West Virginia mountains preaches, only a few bother to come out to hear him, and yet the latter might have a more powerful ministry than the former. We had people in the large Charismatic church I attended in the 1970s telephone to find out who was preaching that Sunday night to decide whether to attend. If Mr BigReputation the HealingProphetEvangelist was preaching, the church would be full, but if it was HumbleDeacon Fred, half the people wouldn't bother coming. That's the effect that hero worship has. Think of the people who travelled thousands of miles to attend the tent meetings of the great healing evangelists in the hope of getting healed, when Jesus lived in their own homes and could have healed them right there if they had enough faith in Him. But these people had more faith in the healing evangelist than Jesus Himself and that is the reason why many went all the way home disappointed and disillusioned.

 

[want-love]

You are Son of God but adopted one ,you are not God , because he is infinite and we are finite beings , that gods used in Psalm 82:6 is not capital G but small g .

in heaven we are infine



TELL ME what is the purpose of finding second interpretations of what jesus said?, jesus said i am god, and he said you are gods, why to reinterpret what he said, would he permit to put a word in the bible to confuse us???

 

[RGW00]

But I also mentioned Baal, and Dagon, and all the other false gods.

What God is calling us to do is to be more and more like Him. Did He not command us to "be perfect?" We are called to become like God, a process that in Eastern Christianity is called THEOSIS, or being divinized.

Yes we are to become like God. I agree, but we are to be as close to as perfect as possible. I forget, are you in agreement with this guy that we are gods too? What I have been saying is that we are to be as perfect as possible and become like God, and carry God's works through us. But He knows we will fall and and are not perfect which therefore, stands to reason that we aren't gods too. Not even close.

 

[Brother Daniel 210]

if we are in the body of christ...

What does the Bible mean by “you are gods” / "ye are gods" in Psalm 82:6 and John 10:34? <-- this article just say "we are not god because we are not gods" but doesnt offer valid arguments

We are not gods as God is God but we are like god because genesis 3:5,22
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: