If They Discovered the Body. . .

jimmyjimmy

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1 Cor. 15:14-19

1 Corinthians 15:14-19

And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied. (ESV)
 
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Monk Brendan

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I would have you removed from all fellowship for even asking this question.

No, allow him to spout. There are times we need to hear comfort if we are afflicted, and affliction if we are comfortable.
 
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devin553344

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1 Cor. 15:14-19, 29-32

It should be noted that the resurrection conjecture was answered in righteousness by the apostle that wrote those verses. They didn't leave it up to debate.
 
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Monk Brendan

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The OP is a HYPOTHETICAL question. Why is this difficult? Why have I woken up in a Twilight Zone episode where no one has ever heard of a hypothetical question?

Jimmy, I have heard of, and respond to hypothetical questions. I have even used them myself. But, as you know, you are attacking peoples' faith, and the responses of some are vitriolic, to say the least.
 
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Monk Brendan

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Would living as a Christian, e.g., loving enemies and giving to the poor make sense if Christianity were found to be untrue because Christ was not risen?

There would be no such thing as Christianity, none of His teachings would have survived. Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Shinto, Jain, and the various animistic sects would survive, but Christianity and Islam would have never happened.
 
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SolomonVII

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If the body of Christ were discovered, if the very central tenet of Christianity were found to be untrue, if He weren't raised, but simply died and was buried, what would be your response? How would the news change your life, if at all?

***This is a hypothetical question. We are assuming both that Christ's body is found, and that it can be proven His, for the sake of discussion only.***

I think I would continue to live my life, same as it ever was.
I would still be committed to the truth, same as always, and go with the best facts at hand. Here in this counterfactual, that truth would be that the resurrection of the body of Christ is a myth, and that the Christian church was in error of this central tenet of the faith for the past 2000 years.
To respect the truth as God (I am the Truth) is to follow the truth wherever it may take us, even to somewhere that we do not want to be taken, especially to somewhere that we would not want to go, in fact.

Many people, I have noticed, believe in Christianity because of the miracles. The fact of miracles is the basis of the faith for many Christians. Resurrection of course is the biggest miracle, and it transcends life as we know it.
For myself, I consciously chose to walk away from that supernatural elements and occurrences in even my own life, and hold onto the mundane world of the natural and the ordinary and the fully provable. This is a conscious choice I made years ago, in order to keep to the straight and narrow, lest everything spin our of control where the world of imagination overwhelms the everyday. To focus one's attention on the supernatural elements of this world, is to find connections everywhere-connections that are very real, and not every supernatural occurrence is of God.

In a word, it is how some of us have managed to keep sane.

The truth of Christianity for me then becomes not holding fast to the miracles, even the central miracle of the Resurrection, but to the values of Christ as he lived his life, and taught us how to life in the process. That his followers got the resurrection wrong in no way negates the authenticity of the life that Jesus Christ, as he was presented to us in the Bible, lived. By living, he taught us how to live. The miracles themselves ultimately were given to us as signs of what in life is worthwhile to strive for; to heal the sick, to feed the hungry, to free the imprisoned, and what not. Miracles themselves did not become mundane and ordinary aspects of Christian life. The manna stopped falling from the sky, and we learned how to till the soil for our food. We no longer strike rocks with sacred staffs for water, but drill wells and engineer reservoirs.
And then go about our lives, striving for water and food and good health and freedom for everyone, no matter how insignificant that some one might be in the eyes of the world.

Resurrection itself is a mystery to our everyday lives. In the here an now, it is not something that any of us live literally, but we may live it metaphorically. We recognize that our lives are greater than our selves, that there is more to life than just filling our own bellies and amusing ourselves.

For Catholics, such a discovery would indeed shatter the illusion of authority of the ecclesiastical clergy, whose sole claim to authority has been reduced to having gotten the story right in the first place. But even there, after the sex abuses scandals, Christians have learned to be wary of their clergy already.
 
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Monk Brendan

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It is unscriptural for the body of Jesus to still exist as a corpse! Therefore I would never believe anything otherwise.

Wrong! The Body of Christ does exist! It is just not a corpse!
 
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Monk Brendan

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For Catholics, such a discovery would indeed shatter the illusion of authority of the ecclesiastical clergy, whose sole claim to authority has been reduced to having gotten the story right in the first place. But even there, after the sex abuses scandals, Christians have learned to be wary of their clergy already.

IF Christ was not risen from the dead, THEN the Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church, all of the Pre-Reformation Churches would not exist. IF that were true, THEN Luther would never have had anything to complain about, Calvin, Zwingli and others would have nothing to reform, and they would sink into oblivion, and all of their followers would have no IDEA of Christianity, because it would NOT EXIST!
 
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SolomonVII

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IF Christ was not risen from the dead, THEN the Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church, all of the Pre-Reformation Churches would not exist. IF that were true, THEN Luther would never have had anything to complain about, Calvin, Zwingli and others would have nothing to reform, and they would sink into oblivion, and all of their followers would have no IDEA of Christianity, because it would NOT EXIST!
It is very possible and more than likely that the Catholic Church and Orthodox Church Protestant church and even mosques would not exist in such a counterfactual world.
Truth, as I presented it, would still exist, and I would still be committed to it.
 
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Monk Brendan

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Truth, as I presented it, would still exist, and I would still be committed to it.

And you are saying that Protestant churches would still be around?
 
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jimmyjimmy

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The truth of Christianity for me then becomes not holding fast to the miracles, even the central miracle of the Resurrection, but to the values of Christ as he lived his life

Thanks for the reply.

What you said, if I understand you correctly, is that Christianity is not falsifiable because it it nothing more than moralisms. It's all about "values", in other words.

For the apostle Paul, the resurrection of Christ IS Christianity. Christianity stands or falls on that one fact. Is he wrong?
 
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Faith Alone 1 Cor 15:1-4

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Wrong! The Body of Christ does exist! It is just not a corpse!

I found the Body of Christ !
1 Corinthians 12:27


Anyway this topic reminds me of a guy who said that he will believe Jesus when they find his bones , how do you even argue with that guy ?
 
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SolomonVII

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Thanks for the reply.

What you said, if I understand you correctly, is that Christianity is not falsifiable because it it nothing more than moralisms. It's all about "values", in other words.

For the apostle Paul, the resurrection of Christ IS Christianity. Christianity stands or falls on that one fact. Is he wrong?
I am not saying that Christianity is not falsifiable. Indeed, absolute proof of the corpse of Jesus would prove that the central claim of Christianity for the past 2000 years have been totally false. Paul himself would be proven to be wrong.

I am not saying that Christianity is all about 'moralisms' etc. either. This counterfactual would totally change what Christianity is. The Resurrection is the central tenet of Christianity.
But the question of the OP was not how the corpse of Christ would effect Christianity, if I recall. It was how the corpse of Christ would effect me, personally. And the answer I gave contains probably the most personal information that I have ever given about myself on these forums.

So if Paul was wrong, the Bible was wrong, 2000 years of papal infallibility was all-too-fallible on the question of an historic resurrection, would there still be something worthwhile to Jesus to believe in?

My answer to that hypothetical situation is an unambiguous YES!!!
Of all the figures of history from Socrates to Buddha to Confucious and Moses to Mohammed and Alexander the Great, even without the resurrection as historic fact, I think that Jesus is still the man that best shows us how to live an authentic life remaining true to God and to ourselves and to our fellow man.

So even if he was not resurrected, I would admire him anyway, and truth be told, he would still be Second Person of Trinity.
Maybe Paul wouldn't believe in that any longer, but the bodily resurrection did not make Jesus Second Person of Trinity. It was just the sign that this is who he was all along.
 
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brinny

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Thanks for the reply.

What you said, if I understand you correctly, is that Christianity is not falsifiable because it it nothing more than moralisms. It's all about "values", in other words.

For the apostle Paul, the resurrection of Christ IS Christianity. Christianity stands or falls on that one fact. Is he wrong?

"Christianity" stands on CHRIST Himself. And whether what Christ said is true or not, and if He is ALL that He said He is. This includes His being CREATOR, and if He rose from the dead. He also stated that there would be some who would say Look He is over there! Or Over here! We have also been admonished to pay no attention to those claims.

There is also the verse about vain imaginations, although i don't know where it is off the top of my head.

Thank you kindly.
 
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Jamsie

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For the apostle Paul, the resurrection of Christ IS Christianity. Christianity stands or falls on that one fact. Is he wrong?

It was an interesting hypothetical but obviously offends some. One can argue the point but Paul considered the point, that the thought may have had a different end point - that the thought was easily dismissed - that he knew the truth of his faith - but the very fact that he raised the issue demonstrates a thought process and consideration to meaning.
 
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Hank77

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If the body of Christ were discovered, if the very central tenet of Christianity were found to be untrue, if He weren't raised, but simply died and was buried, what would be your response? How would the news change your life, if at all?

***This is a hypothetical question. We are assuming both that Christ's body is found, and that it can be proven His, for the sake of discussion only.***
I would have to believe that the Bible was written by men who were not inspired by God because they had written lies.
However, I would still know that there is a God. I cannot remember ever not knowing there was a God, that I was linked to Him somehow, and there was affection/love related to that connection.
 
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Hank77

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Followup question:

Would living as a Christian, e.g., loving enemies and giving to the poor make sense if Christianity were found to be untrue because Christ was not risen?
Yes, if one knows there is God.
 
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Sarah G

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I cannot remember ever not knowing there was a God, that I was linked to Him somehow, and there was affection/love related to that connection.

God bless you, that is so beautiful. I feel the same way.

Edit: Can we actually just end the entire thread on Hank77s post or will it be necessary to trample this beautiful thing into mud along with everything else?
 
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jimmyjimmy

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There is no Christianity if Christ has not been raised.

Baptism represents the death and resurrection of Christ:
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (1 Peter 3:21)

The gospel IS the death and resurrection of Christ For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: (1 Corinthians 15:4-5)
 
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