If there is no Pre-Trib Rapture, are you prepared to go through the Tribulation???

[iamlamad]

Simple question Jesus plainly stated in the gospel of John the resurrection was at the last day. Where is plainly stated that he was wrong and there is a pre resurrection, resurrection.

Was Jesus meaning a 24 hour day - the very last day before......what? The end? Perhaps the very last day before the sheep and goat judgment? Maybe the very last day before the great white throne judgment? Or did He mean a strict, 24 hour day at all? Did he mean all humans who have ever died would resurrect at the same moment in time - or perhaps only the dead in Israel? Or did He mean only the Dead in Christ as Paul wrote?

It is VERY difficult to establish doctrine from one verse or even one chapter in the bible. We cannot ignore 1 Thes. 4 in favor of John 6. Neither can we ignore John 6 in favor of 1 thes. 4. It is UNWISE to use a MACRO verse (a brief mention) for doctrine when we have chapter upon chapter of MICRO verses that get into great detail. Case in point would be John showing is clearly that there will be TWO resurrections over 1000 years apart, the first for the righteous, the second for the sinner.

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

Where does John show the Church in heaven?

How about Rev. 19? Will the Bride of Christ miss her own marriage ceremony?

LAMAD

 

[Interplanner]

Please stop solving about or for the "rapture." It is a total waste of effort and mind. The basics of the Christian view are set.

The 30 year ministry of L'Abri and Dr. Schaeffer went on perfectly fine and never delved into the rapture once. It is a black hole. it is a total waste.

 

[Postvieww]

Was Jesus meaning a 24 hour day - the very last day before......what? The end? Perhaps the very last day before the sheep and goat judgment? Maybe the very last day before the great white throne judgment? Or did He mean a strict, 24 hour day at all? Did he mean all humans who have ever died would resurrect at the same moment in time - or perhaps only the dead in Israel? Or did He mean only the Dead in Christ as Paul wrote?

It is VERY difficult to establish doctrine from one verse or even one chapter in the bible. We cannot ignore 1 Thes. 4 in favor of John 6. Neither can we ignore John 6 in favor of 1 thes. 4. It is UNWISE to use a MACRO verse (a brief mention) for doctrine when we have chapter upon chapter of MICRO verses that get into great detail. Case in point would be John showing is clearly that there will be TWO resurrections over 1000 years apart, the first for the righteous, the second for the sinner.


LAMAD

Sorry I over simplified lets look closer. If you read the context of John 6: 39, 40, 44, and 54 you will find the resurrection Jesus spoke of was clearly those who believe on him. The last day "of what" I believe to be the last day of this age, the day Jesus returns, Matt 24:30-31,1Corin 21-24 "they that are his at his coming" "Then cometh the end"
I am not trying to establish a doctrine on one verse, I was trying to make a point. Some things are clearly spelled out in scripture, ex. John 3:3 "Except a man be born again , he cannot see the kingdom of God" very clear no debate here. Matt 24:29-31 vs29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days" vs 30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven" vs 31 " they shall gather together his elect" these verses establish the time of gathering. Note verse 31 "with the sound of a trumpet" Sounds a lot like 1Corin 15:52 "at the last trump" Rev 11:15-18 the seventh or last trump, wording in verse 15 harmonizes perfectly with 1 Corin. 15:24. 1 Thess 4 of which you referred also speaks of "the trump of God" and the resurrection of which I speak.
I was making the point that scripture clearly teaches the timing of the resurrection of the righteous or dead in Christ or however you want to identify them, but the pre-trib rapture has not one clear scripture that says it is before the tribulation. If you have one please share it with me. I used to believe and teach pre-trib, read many of the books, know most of the arguments for that position, but a few scriptures kept getting in the way of my belief and I could not reconcile them to fit that view. I told a friend one time that I had to work a lot harder at making the scriptures fit the pre-trib view than the post which I now believe to be correct. I don't expect to change anyone's opinion only prayerful study and the Holy Spirit can do that.

 

[Interplanner]

Since the "change" and the last trumpet are nearly simultaneous, the shortest timeframe is the best.

 

[n2thelight]

How about Rev. 19? Will the Bride of Christ miss her own marriage ceremony?

LAMAD

Of course not,however,the marriage takes place on earth..........

As for Rev 19,these are the people who have died throughout time,they did'nt get raptured,they died....This is how Christ brings them when He comes.....


Ecclesiastes 12:6 "Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern."

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it."

The spirit is the intellect of the soul, that gives the soul its identity. This is not complicated. When the body dies, and goes to the grave, the physical body will never have a use again, for the soul has returned to the Father, to God who created it in the first place. Because this is a promise of God, it should be what all Christians look forward to all the days of their lives. That is the day that we will be with the Father and Jesus Christ is heaven, not at some distant time in the future.

God creates the flesh body for your soul to occupy, and He places your spirit within your soul. That is what gives your soul its identity. Then just as God gave it for a brief time, He will take your soul back to Himself, when the flesh body stops having life.

 

[iamlamad]

Please stop solving about or for the "rapture." It is a total waste of effort and mind. The basics of the Christian view are set.

The 30 year ministry of L'Abri and Dr. Schaeffer went on perfectly fine and never delved into the rapture once. It is a black hole. it is a total waste.

I wonder if you will still think this a few minutes after you find that you were left behind, and the Bride was taken to heaven? No, really I don't even have to wonder, we all know you will be screaming, "why am I left behind?"

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

Sorry I over simplified lets look closer. If you read the context of John 6: 39, 40, 44, and 54 you will find the resurrection Jesus spoke of was clearly those who believe on him. The last day "of what" I believe to be the last day of this age, the day Jesus returns, Matt 24:30-31,1Corin 21-24 "they that are his at his coming" "Then cometh the end"
I am not trying to establish a doctrine on one verse, I was trying to make a point. Some things are clearly spelled out in scripture, ex. John 3:3 "Except a man be born again , he cannot see the kingdom of God" very clear no debate here. Matt 24:29-31 vs29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days" vs 30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven" vs 31 " they shall gather together his elect" these verses establish the time of gathering. Note verse 31 "with the sound of a trumpet" Sounds a lot like 1Corin 15:52 "at the last trump" Rev 11:15-18 the seventh or last trump, wording in verse 15 harmonizes perfectly with 1 Corin. 15:24. 1 Thess 4 of which you referred also speaks of "the trump of God" and the resurrection of which I speak.
I was making the point that scripture clearly teaches the timing of the resurrection of the righteous or dead in Christ or however you want to identify them, but the pre-trib rapture has not one clear scripture that says it is before the tribulation. If you have one please share it with me. I used to believe and teach pre-trib, read many of the books, know most of the arguments for that position, but a few scriptures kept getting in the way of my belief and I could not reconcile them to fit that view. I told a friend one time that I had to work a lot harder at making the scriptures fit the pre-trib view than the post which I now believe to be correct. I don't expect to change anyone's opinion only prayerful study and the Holy Spirit can do that.

Here we find more problems. Of course there is no misunderstanding of "after the tribulation." We all understand that phrase. No one will disagree there will be a gathering "after the trib." The problem here is, WHO is gathered? We know from Old Testament verses that one day Jesus will gather the Jews and Hebrews. This could very well be that gathering.

If we examine this verse more closely we see that this gathering gathers from heaven. Or, if we add the Luke version, from both heaven and earth. If we just take time to examine this, can this be talking about Paul's rapture? First the dead in Christ rise. WHERE do they rise from? From UNDER the earth. Not from heaven, not from earth, but from UNDER the earth. Then those that are alive and In Christ rise. They come FROM the earth. If this gathering in Matthew were Paul's rapture, it seems VERY strange that he would write that the gathering is from heaven.

However, if we read Paul closely we see where the "gathering" really is. AFter the dead in Christ rise, and then those who are alive rise, TOGETHER they are caught up to Jesus in the cloud. The root of "together" and gathering is the same. So it seems Paul's rapture gathers from the air. Could "heaven" fit this gathering? It is possible. But is is probable? I have had to answer that as a big NO. If Matthew was speaking of Paul's gathering, he would not have written from heaven.

The same Greek word was used in these verses:

Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven G3772 is at hand.

And lo a voice from heaven, G3772 saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. G3772

Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: G3772


Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. G3772


Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. G3772

There are many more, but this will suffice. If YOU were writing of Paul's rapture, would you have written that this gathering would be from heaven?

Next, it would see very logical that if Matthew was speaking of Paul's "catching up" he would have used the Greek word, "harpazō." I think it is very significant that he did not. There is a difference in a gathering and a catching up.

Next, when I study Paul's rapture, and see the timing Paul gave for it, as the trigger for the Day of the Lord, I see that it is far different than the timing for this gathering in Matthew.

Therefore, we I examine all the facts, I am convinced this gathering in Matthew 24 is simply NOT Paul's rapture. Is God not allowed any other "gathering" without half the church jumping on it and claiming it is Paul's rapture?

You say pretrib has not one scripture. You are simply mistaken. Paul tells us HIS rapture comes as the trigger for the Day of the Lord. John shows us the begining of the Day of the Lord in chapter 6, LONG BEFORE Jesus returns in chapter 19. Next, John shows us the raptured church IN HEAVEN in chapter 7, LONG before chapter 19.


Sorry, but "sounds a lot like" does not make good exegesis! There is no possible way to tie Paul's "last trump" with the 7th trump of Revelation. That too is very poor exegesis. As you said, "not one clear scripture" and there is certainly no clear scripture that links the 7th trumpet in Revelation with Paul's last trump.

Revelation should be read and understood just like a history book, written in the same order things will happen. ANY theory that must rearrange Revelation will be proven wrong.

WHERE are the days of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of found in Revelation? Not until chapters 15 & 16. Where does John see the great crowd in heaven? Way back in chapter 7. John does not even begin the 70th week until the 7th seal. John saw the raptured church in heaven LONG before then.

As you ponder these things, try to figure out how ANYONE could get to the marriage and supper in heaven, if Paul's rapture was when Jesus returned as in Rev. 19? John shows us clearly that Jesus does not descend on the white horse until AFTER the supper. Just this makes a posttrib rapture an impossibility.

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

Of course not,however,the marriage takes place on earth..........

As for Rev 19,these are the people who have died throughout time,they did'nt get raptured,they died....This is how Christ brings them when He comes.....


Ecclesiastes 12:6 "Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern."

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it."

The spirit is the intellect of the soul, that gives the soul its identity. This is not complicated. When the body dies, and goes to the grave, the physical body will never have a use again, for the soul has returned to the Father, to God who created it in the first place. Because this is a promise of God, it should be what all Christians look forward to all the days of their lives. That is the day that we will be with the Father and Jesus Christ is heaven, not at some distant time in the future.

God creates the flesh body for your soul to occupy, and He places your spirit within your soul. That is what gives your soul its identity. Then just as God gave it for a brief time, He will take your soul back to Himself, when the flesh body stops having life.

Why are you changing what is written? John is IN HEAVEN in Rev. 19. Jesus is IN HEAVEN. The marriage is IN HEAVEN. The supper is IN HEAVEN. Jesus does not descend on the white horse until AFTER the marriage. You are rearranging John's book to fit your doctrine.

Why not rearrange your doctrine to fit what John wrote? Have you not read of the MANY people now that have been to heaven and seen with their own eyes the preparation for the supper? It is IN HEAVEN.

You think you have this down, but in reality you have believed something FAR from truth. The SOUL is the mind, will, emotions, and affections. When the rich man went to hell, it was His spirit with his soul in hell. (Remember 5the spirit and soul are tied very tightly together and ONLY the Word of God can separate.) Only the souls of the RIGHTEOUS will go to heaven, and that ONLY after Jesus rose from the Dead. In other words, Solomon had it WRONG. Jesus showed the rich man in hell with a memory, and with a tongue and with much pain. Paul teaches us that the born again spirit and soul will go to heaven after the body dies.

You missed it again. There were some, those beheaded, that died. But those seen on thrones did not have to die: they just got CHANGED at Paul's rapture. May I suggest you go back and camp out on 1 thes for a few months?

YOu have comings mixed up and who Christ brings. When He comes FOR His bride, before the 70th week, He comes bringing the spirits of those who have died in Christ with Him to rejoin with their body the moment it is raised. When He comes in Rev. 19, after the marriage and supper, He will come WITH all His saints.

LAMAD

 

[Interplanner]

Lamad,
the whole rapture thing is a sub issue. If it blurs justification by christ then it should be dumped.

A person is justified from their sins by Christ's work. That is the fundamental question of life and I "known whom I have believed."

You are spending all this time on energy on something that is a totally unclear corollary issue that is as inconclusive as the Bible ever gets. Just leave it. In my line above, I have just provided what Romans, Galatians, Ephesians and Hebrews richly provide. You are haggling over and over about 2-3 lines from Thess and 1 Cor, that don't alter whether we are justified from our sins.

People who are justified from their sins and believe the Gospel may go through all kinds of miserable circumstances; I don't know. But nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ, not even a missed rapture.

I just wanted you to see how worthless most of this debate is.

 

[Manasseh_]

You think you have this down, but in reality you have believed something FAR from truth. The SOUL is the mind, will, emotions, and affections. When the rich man went to hell, it was His spirit with his soul in hell. (Remember 5the spirit and soul are tied very tightly together and ONLY the Word of God can separate.) Only the souls of the RIGHTEOUS will go to heaven, and that ONLY after Jesus rose from the Dead. In other words, Solomon had it WRONG. Jesus showed the rich man in hell with a memory, and with a tongue and with much pain. Paul teaches us that the born again spirit and soul will go to heaven after the body dies.


LAMAD

it's your conclusion that's far from the truth, the definition of a soul in scripture is a NEPHESH, a living breathing being, both man and animal were called NEPHESH (souls) in Genesis and "hell" translated in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is translated from Greek as the grave, the rich man was taking part in his resurrection about to be cast into the lake of fire...........your conclusion comes from the false doctrine that souls are immortal.............

the soul that sins, IT SHALL DIE...........souls are subject to death because they are mortal beings, ie, just as the hebrew word Nephesh defines, a living BREATHING being...............BTW...........Paul never taught that any soul goes to heaven at death, souls die and go to the grave

 

[Postvieww]

Dear brother since your have all of this so correctly figured out let me ask you one question. If to be absent from the body is to be present with The Lord. I am clearly speaking of death. What scriptural evidence do you have that any group mentioned in the book of Revelation as being in heaven are raptured individuals in their glorified bodies and not just the spirits of those gone on to be with The Lord. Remember those told to rest awhile till their fellow believers heads were chopped off. Please ponder this question.

 

[n2thelight]

Manasseh

BTW...........Paul never taught that any soul goes to heaven at death, souls die and go to the grave

Would have to disagree with you on this one,all souls return to the Father at death,until the great white throne judgement....It's just a matter of which side of the gulf you will be on until that time(GWJ)arrives

Ecclesiastes 12:6 "Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern."


Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it."



Luke 16:23 "And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."

This is a parable about two men that actually lived, and when both died, the rich man could see Lazarus in heaven with Abraham. He could look across that great gulf that stood between them, but could not go there. Our Heavenly Father is the Father of the living and not the dead. Thus to be absent from this physical body of the flesh is to be present with the Lord. The soul does not go to the grave as the flesh does, but goes immediate to heaven. Those that did not overcome cannot be with those that overcame in this earth age, for they are separated. All souls can actually see the throne of God from where they are. Those that are on the rich man's side are being held for that great judgment day.


Luke 16:26 "And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.' "

"Between us that over came, and you that did not overcome, there is a great gulf fixed." That gulf is so fixed that even though one side can see the other side, there is no way to pass between. We can't go your way and you can't come our way. Luke is making the entire clear that you set your course in this life of the flesh, and when your soul passes into the next life, there is no changing what you have done in this life. This gulf or chasm is from the Greek "Chasma"; It means "an impassable interval". The interval is of time and space. This is telling us that if you die hell bound and enter into that other dimension, there is no way that you can reenter back into this dimension again. What ever side of the gulf you are on when you die, that is the side you stay until judgment day. This space is talked about by the prophet Ezra, or in the Greek "Esdras" in the Apocrypha, in the II Esdras 7:78-87. Though it is rejected in our bibles today, it was in the original king James version of 1611, until the American and British Bible societies removed it. It interfered with some of their traditions, and thus had to go. But it was revealed to Ezra by God.

II Esdras 7:78-80 "For about death, the teaching is: When the final sentence goes forth from the Most High that a man is to die, when the soul departs from the body to return again to him who gave it, first of all it prays to the glory of the Most High; if it was one of those who scorned and did not observe the way of the Most High, and of those who have despised his law, and of those who hate those who fear God, such spirits shall not enter dwellings but wander about thence forth in torment, always grieving and sad, in seven ways."

And I do agree that the soul can and will die,if not right with God

 

[Bible2]

iamlamad said in post 747:

I wonder if you will still think this a few minutes after you find that you were left behind, and the Bride was taken to heaven?

Do you mean that the rapture will take believers into the 3rd heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 12:2b)? If so, note that no scripture requires that believers will be raptured any higher than the clouds of the sky (the 1st heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). After that meeting, in which the church will be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), and the obedient part of the church will be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7, Matthew 25:1-13), the obedient part of the church will come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:15-21) to reign on the earth with him for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). After the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), the obedient part of the church will live on the new earth with God the Father and Jesus in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation chapters 21-22).

--

There are 3 heavens (2 Corinthians 12:2b). The 1st heaven is the sky, the atmosphere, in which the birds fly (Genesis 1:20b). The 2nd heaven is outer space, where the sun, moon, and stars reside (Deuteronomy 4:19). Where God resides is the 3rd heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2b, Revelation 4:1-2), and so it is beyond outer space, in the sense of it being in a higher (i.e. a 4th) spatial dimension. And it is a physical place, for Jesus ascended there in his physical resurrection body (Acts 1:9-11, Luke 24:39). And Paul said that he could have visited there in his physical body (2 Corinthians 12:2). Also, Elijah and Enoch were taken up there in their physical bodies (2 Kings 2:11, Genesis 5:24, Hebrews 11:5). And the 2 witnesses will be taken up there in their physical bodies (Revelation 11:11-12).

In the 3rd heaven, there is currently a literal city 1,500 miles cubed (Revelation 21:16), which is called New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2), the heavenly Jerusalem (Hebrews 12:22), the Jerusalem which is above (Galatians 4:26), and the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:2-3). In the future, God will create a new earth (a new surface of the earth) and a new heaven (a new 1st heaven, a new atmosphere for the earth) (Revelation 21:1). And then God will come down in New Jerusalem from the 3rd heaven to the new earth to live with people on the new earth (Revelation 21:2-3, Revelation 3:12b). It is New Jerusalem which has the literal pearly gates and streets of gold (Revelation 21:21) which people ascribe to heaven. So what people think of as heaven, in the sense of living in bliss with God, will eventually be on the new earth.

Currently, the 3rd heaven is where paradise is (2 Corinthians 12:2,4). And paradise is where believers go when they die (Luke 23:43,46). So believers go to the 3rd heaven when they die. Also, paradise is where the literal tree of life is (Revelation 2:7). And the tree of life is in New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:2). So when people go to paradise, they go to New Jerusalem.

The earth's 3rd heaven could be high above the north pole (cf. the connection between heaven and the north in Isaiah 14:13, KJV). Regarding what we today call "the northern lights", even though they can been explained by physics, they could still point to the location of the glory of the earth's 3rd heaven. And Psalm 48:2's reference to the north could refer to the location of New Jerusalem in heaven.

*******

iamlamad said in post 748:

If this gathering in Matthew were Paul's rapture, it seems VERY strange that he would write that the gathering is from heaven.

Note that Matthew 24:31's parallel verse of Mark 13:27 shows that the church will be gathered together from both heaven and earth.

The way this will work is: 1 Thessalonians 3:13 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 show that at Jesus' 2nd coming, the souls of all obedient dead believers of all times will be brought down from the 3rd heaven with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), and their souls will descend to the earth and their physical bodies will resurrect/rise from their graves (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Then they and all believers who will survive the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth (those who will still be "alive and remain") will be raptured up high into the air above the places all around the globe where they will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17a), and then they will be gathered together from the sky (the 1st heaven) all around the globe (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) to the one place in the sky where the returned Jesus will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17b), which will be right above Jerusalem, before he sets his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4-5, Acts 1:11-12).

It is because of this 2nd-coming rapture into the sky, and then the gathering to where in the sky Jesus will be (and then the marriage of the obedient part of the church there to Jesus: Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), that the obedient part of the church will already be with Jesus when he subsequently descends from the sky (the 1st heaven) to the earth (Revelation 19:14, Revelation 17:14, Zechariah 14:5c,4).

iamlamad said in post 748:

John shows us the raptured church IN HEAVEN in chapter 7, LONG before chapter 19.

Note that Revelation 7:9-17 doesn't require a pre-tribulation rapture. For in Revelation 7:9-17, the great multitude can be only that part of the church (Revelation 7:14b) which will enter the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and then come out of it (Revelation 7:14) and enter heaven (Revelation 7:15) by dying (cf. Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8) during the 2nd through 6th seals in the chapter just prior (Revelation 6), the tribulation's first stage.

This would be similar to how the souls of "them that were slain for the word of God", who will be under the altar in heaven at the 5th seal (Revelation 6:9-11), will enter heaven by dying sometime before the 5th seal. And it would be similar to how those in the church who will be on the sea of glass in heaven (Revelation 15:2, cf. Revelation 12:11) at the tribulation's 7 last plagues (Revelation chapters 15-16), the tribulation's final stage, will enter heaven by dying during the just-preceding, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

 

[Bible2]

Manasseh said in post 751:

Paul never taught that any soul goes to heaven at death, souls die and go to the grave

Are you thinking of the idea of "soul sleep"? If so, note that only the physical bodies of the dead in their graves are euphemistically "asleep" (1 Thessalonians 4:13; 1 Corinthians 15:18,51). And only their dead, physical brains are without any thoughts (Ecclesiastes 9:5, Psalms 6:5, Psalms 115:17, Isaiah 38:18a). For the soul is distinct from the body (1 Thessalonians 5:23). And the soul can remain alive even when the body is dead (Matthew 10:28a). And the soul can remain conscious outside of the body, whether the body is still alive (2 Corinthians 12:2-4) or has died (Revelation 6:9-10).

So the souls of the dead remain conscious, either in heaven with Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43,46, Acts 3:21) or in fiery punishment in Hades (Luke 16:22-24). At Jesus' 2nd coming, he will bring with him from heaven all the souls of all obedient believers who have ever died (1 Thessalonians 4:14). And they will descend to the earth where the graves of their bodies are, and their bodies will be physically resurrected into immortality at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53, Revelation 20:4-6).

Sometime after the subsequent millennium and Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), the souls in Hades will be physically resurrected, judged, and cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:12-15), which will be the 2nd death (Revelation 21:8). This will be the death of both their resurrected bodies and their souls (Matthew 10:28). And yet, even though they will be dead in both body and soul, their spirits, which are distinct from their bodies and souls (1 Thessalonians 5:23), will remain conscious, and will be tormented along with the spirits of Satan and his fallen angels forever (Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Matthew 25:41,46, Mark 9:45b-46, Isaiah 66:24).

--

Materialists think that consciousness can involve only that which is physical, and that it arises by having a certain number of neuronal connections in one's brain. So some scientists could be trying to create a supercomputer with enough neural network connections so that (they hope) it will become conscious. But the Bible shows that humans are more than just physical bodies (1 Thessalonians 5:23), and that human souls can have consciousness outside of their bodies, whether their bodies are still alive (2 Corinthians 12:2-4) or have died (Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 16:22b-23). Also, angels have consciousness, even though they are referred to simply as "spirits" (Hebrews 1:7).

So consciousness per se isn't something which requires a certain number of neuronal connections, but can be based on something even more fundamental: spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23). All consciousness ultimately being based on spirit would make sense, for God is an infinite Spirit and an infinite consciousness (John 4:24, Psalms 139:7-10, Jeremiah 23:24). And if spirit is the same as consciousness, then every kind of created thing can have some consciousness (Revelation 5:13, Mark 4:39-41, Luke 17:6, Matthew 17:20), for everything exists within God (Acts 17:28), having been brought into and maintained in existence by God's Spirit (Psalms 104:30).

A scientific way to think of this would be that the relationship between the spiritual and the physical may be analogous to the relationship between energy and matter. Just as the relationship of energy to matter is summarized by the equation e=mc^2, which means that immense amounts of energy are congealed and compacted, as it were, in order to form each tiny particle of matter, so the relationship between spirit and energy could theoretically be summarized by, for example, the equation s=ec^3, meaning that immense amounts of spirit may be congealed and compacted, as it were, in order to form each tiny photon of energy. And if all matter is based on energy, and all energy is based on spirit, and all spirit is consciousness, then all matter is ultimately based on consciousness, and so all matter can have some consciousness. This would explain how a puff of wind, a wave of water, a tree, or a mountain can obey a human command (Mark 4:39-41, Luke 17:6, Matthew 17:20), and how every kind of created thing can worship God (Revelation 5:13).

 

[iamlamad]

Lamad,
the whole rapture thing is a sub issue. If it blurs justification by christ then it should be dumped.

A person is justified from their sins by Christ's work. That is the fundamental question of life and I "known whom I have believed."

You are spending all this time on energy on something that is a totally unclear corollary issue that is as inconclusive as the Bible ever gets. Just leave it. In my line above, I have just provided what Romans, Galatians, Ephesians and Hebrews richly provide. You are haggling over and over about 2-3 lines from Thess and 1 Cor, that don't alter whether we are justified from our sins.

People who are justified from their sins and believe the Gospel may go through all kinds of miserable circumstances; I don't know. But nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ, not even a missed rapture.

I just wanted you to see how worthless most of this debate is.

I have never said anything against being justified by our faith. This is basic Paul 101. However, God gives us glimpses of the future for a purpose: so we can prepare. He spent several verses in the gospel warning about the days of great tribulation coming, and how to escape from those days. Then He gave us the whole book of Revelation, of which many chapters are written about the 70th week of Daniel. You seem to ignore that part of scripture.

Suppose someone is born again and justified by their faith in the finished work of Jesus......but then becomes lukewarm and is left behind when Jesus comes FOR His bride. Are they guaranteed to make heaven, because they were born again? No, there is no guarantee, for God has warned against taking the easy way out and accepting the mark of the beast. It is important then that people KNOW what is ahead. Let's not be like ostriches and bury our head in the sand.

LAMAD

 

[shturt678s]

it's your conclusion that's far from the truth, the definition of a soul in scripture is a NEPHESH, a living breathing being, both man and animal were called NEPHESH (souls) in Genesis and "hell" translated in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is translated from Greek as the grave, the rich man was taking part in his resurrection about to be cast into the lake of fire...........your conclusion comes from the false doctrine that souls are immortal.............

the soul that sins, IT SHALL DIE...........souls are subject to death because they are mortal beings, ie, just as the hebrew word Nephesh defines, a living BREATHING being...............BTW...........Paul never taught that any soul goes to heaven at death, souls die and go to the grave

From the English view of Scripture, I would have to agree with you; however from the ancient's way of viewing, all souls from Adam forward never got out of here dead, dead...all awoke in heaven or hell.

Old Jack's opinion

 

[iamlamad]

it's your conclusion that's far from the truth, the definition of a soul in scripture is a NEPHESH, a living breathing being, both man and animal were called NEPHESH (souls) in Genesis and "hell" translated in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is translated from Greek as the grave, the rich man was taking part in his resurrection about to be cast into the lake of fire...........your conclusion comes from the false doctrine that souls are immortal.............

the soul that sins, IT SHALL DIE...........souls are subject to death because they are mortal beings, ie, just as the hebrew word Nephesh defines, a living BREATHING being...............BTW...........Paul never taught that any soul goes to heaven at death, souls die and go to the grave

God is a self revealing God, and over time has revealed more and more knowledge. What we read in the new testament is far clearer than what we read in the old, for God has revealed more. What Solomon wrote was written down accurately but was surely not "God breathed." I would add to that much of what is accurately written in the book of Job: at the end God told Job that what his three friends said was wrong. Shall we call what God said was wrong as "god breathed" and scripture? No.

Therefore we should put FAR more weight on what we read in the New Testament about the spirit, soul and body. When the apostles saw Jesus walking on the water, they did not think they saw a soul - they though they were seeing a SPIRIT. It is the spirit of a human that is the real person. The spirit is the LIFE of the person and will live as long as God lives. However, the soul, being the mind, the will, the emtions and affections, are tied very tightly to the Spirit, and go with the spirit wherever the spirit goes. The story of the rich man was NOT as parable, it was a story or two real men. As anyone can tell reading this story, both the rich man and Lazarus was there and very much alive. They could feel and they could think outside of their physical bodies. They could remember and could reason.

When we are born again, it is our SPIRIt man that is reborn. Sadly it is up to us to keep our soulish area in line with the word of God, for our soul does not get born again.

What do YOU think Paul meant when he wrote that to be away from our body (dead) would be present with the Lord?

Over the past 20 or so years, God has taken many people to heaven to see it and return to write about it. Many of these people have SEEN and talked with bible characters, and even their own relatives. The bible characters we read about (the righteous ones) are IN HEAVEN; not in their body, but in their spirit, with their soul.

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

Dear brother since your have all of this so correctly figured out let me ask you one question. If to be absent from the body is to be present with The Lord. I am clearly speaking of death. What scriptural evidence do you have that any group mentioned in the book of Revelation as being in heaven are raptured individuals in their glorified bodies and not just the spirits of those gone on to be with The Lord. Remember those told to rest awhile till their fellow believers heads were chopped off. Please ponder this question.

I have as much proof they were raptured as you have proof they had died.
The marriage will take place in heaven. The bride will certainly be there for the wedding. The marriage places them there. HOW did they get there? By death? No, Paul makes it very clear that some will get there by being caught up while still alive. We call this the rapture.

LAMAD

 

[Rev20]

I wonder if you will still think this a few minutes after you find that you were left behind, and the Bride was taken to heaven? No, really I don't even have to wonder, we all know you will be screaming, "why am I left behind?"

LAMAD

You have been watching way too many movies.


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