If the whole world is deceived

[HTacianas]

How do you know you aren't? Note that I don't exclude myself from the question.

Does any ever wake up in the morning and say "today I will become a heretic"? But it seems a lot of people over the years have done just that.

What makes us so sure we are not one of them?

 

[Hazelelponi]

The Bible.

My answer is that Book.

I spent time worried or scared that I might be going wrong.. time I questioned everything... I questioned it again after coming here, so many here are so lost or obviously don't know the same God I do that it made me again wonder about myself..

But all I have is this. I am following that Word to the best of my ability through God's Holy Spirit, and everything I believe, everything I know, and everything I have experienced of God has been believed, experienced, and known by others...

So in the end I rest in that, that God's promises are real, they are for today, I am not alone, and I can trust in HIM because if I am His then He will never let me go - and He called me His people.

And I pray every day that He will keep me in His hand, under His perfect power and protection, and I have peace.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

How do you know you aren't? Note that I don't exclude myself from the question.

Does any ever wake up in the morning and say "today I will become a heretic"? But it seems a lot of people over the years have done just that.

What makes us so sure we are not one of them?

...I know because the Bible indicates that no one human person has all of the answers. So, that's me; that's you, too.

 

[Chris V++]

'Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.'

'Heretic' is a word used to manipulate the laity. Some of us really need to learn to relax.

 

[HTacianas]

'Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.'

'Heretic' is a word used to manipulate the laity. Some of us really need to learn to relax.

Are you saying there are no heresies?

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

How do you know you aren't? Note that I don't exclude myself from the question.

Does any ever wake up in the morning and say "today I will become a heretic"? But it seems a lot of people over the years have done just that.

What makes us so sure we are not one of them?

#Hazelelponi provided the answer, but I would like to try a different but related angle.

The question has to do with knowledge, how do we know, it is an epistemological question. Without the Bible, we have no revelation from God, and no basis for truly knowing anything. So I would look at it from the impossibility of the contrary, because it seems self evident that we can truly know. Because we were created in the image of God (Bible), given the ability to reason, and the only justification for knowing apart from self, that is objectively, of things outside of self, objective truths, is because of God, because all truth is God's truth and He knows exhaustively and perfectly so that there is a standard for perfect knowledge in the being of God. In Scripture we are told that the "fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge" (Proverbs), and in Christ "are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge" (Colossians 2:3). So if I decided I am self-deceived about Christianity, then I would be forfeiting all justification for knowing truth objectively, I would therefore drown in the ocean of subjectivism, without the Spirit of truth leading me into the truth, I would be embracing the empistemology of a fool.

 

[ewq1938]

How do you know you aren't? Note that I don't exclude myself from the question.

Does any ever wake up in the morning and say "today I will become a heretic"? But it seems a lot of people over the years have done just that.

What makes us so sure we are not one of them?

People that are deceived will 100 percent know they are not deceived. Those that wonder are not deceived.

 

[Chris V++]

Are you saying there are no heresies?

No but is there agreement between the traditions on what constitutes heresy?

How do you know you aren't? Note that I don't exclude myself from the question.

I guess the question can be reposed as 'How do I know I've found the one true faith tradition and have submitted and conformed sufficiently?' since being a heretic is being at odds with what is generally accepted within a chosen tradition.

 

[HTacianas]

#Hazelelponi provided the answer, but I would like to try a different but related angle.

The question has to do with knowledge, how do we know, it is an epistemological question. Without the Bible, we have no revelation from God, and no basis for truly knowing anything. So I would look at it from the impossibility of the contrary, because it seems self evident that we can truly know. Because we were created in the image of God (Bible), given the ability to reason, and the only justification for knowing apart from self, that is objectively, of things outside of self, objective truths, is because of God, because all truth is God's truth and He knows exhaustively and perfectly so that there is a standard for perfect knowledge in the being of God. In Scripture we are told that the "fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge" (Proverbs), and in Christ "are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge" (Colossians 2:3). So if I decided I am self-deceived about Christianity, then I would be forfeiting all justification for knowing truth objectively, I would therefore drown in the ocean of subjectivism, without the Spirit of truth leading me into the truth, I would be embracing the empistemology of a fool.

I was reading earlier an article about Christadelphianism. While I am not picking on them, their theology and christology is viewed by many as heretical, yet they use basically the same reasoning you use to justify their beliefs. Looking at the Jehovah's Witnesses many would reach the same conclusion but I'm sure they can use the same reasoning to justify their beliefs as well.

 

[HTacianas]

No but is there agreement between the traditions on what constitutes heresy?



I guess the question can be reposed as 'How do I know I've found the one true faith tradition and have submitted and conformed sufficiently?' since being a heretic is being at odds with what is generally accepted within a chosen tradition.

Perhaps in the end we are sorting through those traditions now.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

I was reading earlier an article about Christadelphianism. While I am not picking on them, their theology and christology is viewed by many as heretical, yet they use basically the same reasoning you use to justify their beliefs. Looking at the Jehovah's Witnesses many would reach the same conclusion but I'm sure they can use the same reasoning to justify their beliefs as well.

It is hardly heretical to base one's epistemology on Scripture, just the opposite, it is a Biblical epistemology and based on the same method as Scripture, the Holy Spirit leading and guiding into the truth, to Christ who is the embodiment of truth. Or what did Christ mean when He said; "I am the way, the truth...."? What does this entail if we are in Christ? The Holy Spirit testifies to the truth, with internal witness and eternal through others and He is also one with the Father and the Son. The epistemology I have put forth has a history, but not with heretics, rather within Reformed apologetics and philosophy, to give a handful of names: Cornelius Van Til, Gordon H. Clark, Alvin Plantinga, and Greg Bahnsen are the major figures. Among other things, Dr. Greg Bahnsen wrote a dissertation paper of the concept of self-deception, and its crucial role in apologetics. I highly doubt Christadelphianism or Jehovah's Witnesses have much in common with Reformed epistemology, but nice try.

 

[childeye 2]

How do you know you aren't? Note that I don't exclude myself from the question.

Does any ever wake up in the morning and say "today I will become a heretic"? But it seems a lot of people over the years have done just that.

What makes us so sure we are not one of them?

My short answer: I know that God is not at the top telling everyone else what to do or else. He is on the bottom holding everyone up.

The will is actually governed by what a person believes to be true. Deception occurs when someone accepts something as true that is not true. Propaganda and psychological manipulation is all about controlling people's choices/decisions through misperceptions, misdirection, misunderstanding, and mischaracterizations. Jesus said Satan was a liar from the beginning and scripture says that he was the most cunning and subtle of all of Gods' creatures.

So to answer your question directly, one needs to understand that the intention of the liar/Satan is to turn people against God through various subtle means of slander against God. Every lie invented ultimately serves to subvert the great commandment to Love God with all your heart mind and soul. Satan uses semantics to create a false image of god in our thoughts, so his words always suggest that god is a person who wants everyone else to serve him, not because god is always looking out for our best interests, but because might makes right. Hence the god of this world is one of vanity that creates a dog eat dog world, where the greatest is the one who has power over all others beneath him and ruthlessly forces others to serve his will through fear of death.

Contrary to that image of god, is the Christ (the True Image of God sent by God) who teaches that the greatest is the one who serves the rest even because God is Love and that is what Love does.

 

[Chris V++]

Perhaps in the end we are sorting through those traditions now.

The early church laity didn't have the access to the scriptures that we have today, so now we have questioning of the validity of some established traditions when the traditions seem to contradict the scriptures themselves, which makes it a challenge to decide on a faith or denomination when there are so many to choose from, especially when it takes a lot of research to understand the reasoning behind the traditions and probably a little cognitive dissonance to accept some of them on faith alone.

 

[HTacianas]

The early church laity didn't have the access to the scriptures that we have today, so now we have questioning of the validity of some established traditions when the traditions seem to contradict the scriptures themselves, which makes it a challenge to decide on a faith or denomination when there are so many to choose from, especially when it takes a lot of research to understand the reasoning behind the traditions and probably a little cognitive dissonance to accept some of them on faith alone.

You're right that people didn't have that access, but things have only gotten worse since they have.

I accept the decisions of the Ecumenical Councils not on faith alone, but also the knowledge that their decisions were made with the authority given to them by Jesus Christ.

 

[Chris V++]

You're right that people didn't have that access, but things have only gotten worse since they have.

So would it be better for us not to have access? That's what some think. They feel they aren't qualified so would rather just follow unquestioningly.

'These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.' Acts 17:11 suggests that we should be searching the scriptures to verify what we are told. The Bereans were apparently even challenging or verifying what Paul was telling them and were considered 'noble.'

 

[1213]

...
What makes us so sure we are not one of them?

I think one way to check it is to think, do you remain in truth. This means for example to think, are your ideas based on the Bible, or to something else.

 

[Phil 1:21]

How do you know you aren't? Note that I don't exclude myself from the question.

Does any ever wake up in the morning and say "today I will become a heretic"? But it seems a lot of people over the years have done just that.

What makes us so sure we are not one of them?

The Bible.

This!

 

[drich0150]

How do you know you aren't? Note that I don't exclude myself from the question.

Does any ever wake up in the morning and say "today I will become a heretic"? But it seems a lot of people over the years have done just that.

What makes us so sure we are not one of them?

Do you know how God answered that question when he asked it?

I got a hand drawn picture of a portrait we have of the family standing all together outside of my dad's house the day we found out there was a little one on the way. Granted the picture was taken by a digital high def camera and it show crisp true to life details and showed everything flawlessly just as they were 3 years or so prior. Then I got a 3year old's hand drawn version of that pic.. in the back was the house, then a different colored blob to repersent each person, and whether or not we were actually smiling everyone in the hand drawn was smiling and happy to be there. most importantly the little girl put herself in the pic as a little spirit that one day would become part of the family..

Now as a loving father do I take this picture as proof of error, and then my belt and beat my 3 year old for not getting the digital picture right?

it is clearly a terrible representation based on the digital standard pic! the people are all different colors, and there was no little spirit of our future daughter depicted in the digital portrait.
Now given all these mistakes in relation to the perfect standard I have by your logic I should beat/punish her because of her in ability to accurately represent what I have created with a digital camera/she fell short of the perfect example...

That is what people say/do when they say God demands perfection or that we worship Him perfectly. In that God has a high def picture, throws us some crayons and the demand a high def rendering of the same pic.. Then punishes us as heretics when we can not produce perfect photocopies of the standard.. Yet someone willing sins can find grace and forgiveness...

Would any loving father look at a pic a little girl did in love of the family she loves and wants to be apart of she spends a good amount of time recreating a loving moment and try and include herself into the the moment using all of her ability and yet still fall short, and punish her for the effort, yet forgive an older brother for smashing a birthday cake because it was not hs birthday?

In other words why would God have grace for those who willfully sin, and no grace who try and worship Him with all of their ability just like Jesus demands and they fall short of perfection despite using everything God gave them?

So then it dawns on me If there is atonement when we willing sin, how much more grace is there from God when we love God with all of our being and our neighbors as ourselves and we still get it wrong??

Rather that is the whole point about living free from the law. Meaning God rather than demand high def pic from crayons sent Christ to atonement so he can forgive the mistakes we make not only when we sin but we when are trying our best to love God with all of our heart, mind spirit and strength...

That is why there are so many different denominations. because each one of us it different our praise and worship with we love God with all of our being is different. for example we are all different members of the same body. meaning we can not all work and or worship in the same way and full fill our greatest command (to love god with all of our being) I might be a hand and can worship God by making or fixing something. while you might be an ear who can't make or fix anything but can listen.. for that our worship will be different our understanding of God will be different (mine will be more hand like because that is what i understand) and your version might need to be more ear like because that is what you need to understand, hence different denominations... There would be alot of clapping and snapping in my worship while your worship service may focous on listening to different things..
Which one has it right? both and neither. As there is grace that abound when we both worship God with all that we have and all that we are. God fills in the rest. that was the whole point of atonement on the cross. not only for willful sin but the gaps in our worship as we are mearly parts of a greater whole and as such needs grace to fill in the gaps!

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

How do you know you aren't? Note that I don't exclude myself from the question.

Does any ever wake up in the morning and say "today I will become a heretic"? But it seems a lot of people over the years have done just that.

What makes us so sure we are not one of them?

'If you keep the Word Jesus spoke to us, then you keep the One who spoke it' (Apostle John).

 

[Serving Zion]

How do you know you aren't? Note that I don't exclude myself from the question.

Does any ever wake up in the morning and say "today I will become a heretic"? But it seems a lot of people over the years have done just that.

What makes us so sure we are not one of them?

Jesus suggested that even the elect were susceptible to deception (that is, the ones whom we assume are most capable of making it on the narrow path).

St Paul implies through Galatians 1:8 that he is aware of the risk being real. The only way we can be sure is to be honest with ourselves.

Whenever we find ourself tempted to not accept someone else's position, there is the danger of entering self deception. That is of pride, where we would rather save face than repent - for fear of the consequence or the shame of having been wrong.

There is also a state of deception for us in that moment before repenting, where we have held a wrong position before someone has brought more accurate knowledge (the opportunity to repent). That happens when we are misled to trust and believe what others say, and new Christians are most at risk, seeing they are uneducated and unaware of the reality of the wolves.

So, the only way we can be sure, ultimately, is to love truth enough that we are delighted to be proven wrong (and by practice, hone the art of grace in the growth - giving honour to whom honour is due, and carefully navigating to acquire growth with minimal disparagement accrued - Proverbs 18:13.