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If the two candidates with a realistic chance of winning were...

Discussion in 'American Politics' started by TheOtherHockeyMom, Oct 28, 2012.

  1. Paradoxum

    Paradoxum Liberty, Equality, Solidarity!

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    Calling him a fascist seem to be going a bit far. I really do disagree with some thing he has done, and hasn't done, but I doubt he is that extreme.

    As much as I do disagree with Obama on some things, I doubt Romney would be any better.
     
  2. stamperben

    stamperben It's an old family tradition

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    And I can fully agree with the second half of this post. :thumbsup:
     
  3. seashale76

    seashale76 Orthodox Christian and Unapologetic Iconodule

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    Wrong. We have a mixed economy that isn't capitalist or socialist. This is the fascist compromise between the two. I'm surprised more people aren't aware of it- but- as I've said- our country has gone to great lengths to avoid the 'f' word in connotation with anything we do.

    The man is pushing for government control of the economy that still leaves private ownership. These bailouts are fascist to the core. This is essentially the very definition of economic fascism. It's what Obama wants. GM wanted out and they have been told they're not allowed to buy out the government stakes. Even the Affordable Care Act leans toward fascism. It isn't socialized medicine. Ron Paul nailed it when he referred to it as, "corporate medicine leaning toward fascism".

    No, but it is a good indicator of it creeping in. The NDAA, Patriot Act, and other executive orders that have been signed are certainly pointing in that direction. Our civil liberties are at stake. Surveillance of Americans has gone up drastically in the last two years. We are losing our constitutional rights and have been for a while. America is becoming more of a police state.

    ACLU forces government to reveal skyrocketing surveillance stats | Ars Technica

    Obama Justifies FEMA imprisonment of civilians! - YouTube

    People do fetishize 'liberty' but what we have had, since at least FDR, are policies modeled directly from Italian fascism. FDR was a huge admirer of Italian fascism. The trend has continued through the years. Obama is not an exception.
    Here's a great article that delves into the history.
    The Rise of American Fascism

    Yes, it is about more than economic policy. However, one can be a fascist without the Hitler, kill everyone not Aryan fixation. It isn't an ideology that has remained stagnant since the 1930s, and there are other forms of fascism in this world. But, let's not get caught up in what people 'say', let's focus on what they 'do'. Abortion has always been about population control and eugenics. The idea now is to have people willing to not reproduce on their own- and it is surprisingly more successful than forcing that idea ever was. It's not really about race these days. It's more about we're all Americans and anyone who isn't with the federal government's idea of what an American should be will have their civil rights violated. Let's say, Muslims, constitutionalists, and militias, for example. They're terrorists and un-American. They should be indefinitely detained.

    Obama is all about ending class divisions, yet also favors the 'proletarian culture' as the goal for national unity. Did you not notice the strange anti-union stance lately of the Democrats during the Chicago teacher strike? While more pro-union than the Republicans, I was rather shocked at the implications. This is also a fascist thing- as fascism sees such union activities as detrimental to society.

    Don't forget his idea of promoting a 'civilian security force' as a way to motivate people toward this national unity idea. While he didn't start City Year, it has been promoted heavily under the Obama admin.
    Obama's Militaristic Youth Corp Commercial - YouTube

    Then there's the militarization, drones, etcetera. Guantanamo Bay is still open. The MIC is still going strong. What he says and does don't match.

    Seriously? Never? Globalists are those who are in charge and have a vested interest in corporations. Corporations have more rights than people. These folks run everything- even Obama. You can't get in the club to be a puppet unless you're one of them. Do you realize how many American corporations were started by fascist sympathizers who played both sides of WWII and benefitted from it?

    More people need to become aware of what fascism is. The US has even promoted this notion all throughout the ME for a while now. However, we don't use the 'f' word, so I suppose that makes it alright. The US sees itself as being superior and needing to spread that around the world. Look at any political compass on the internet. The US Democrats and Republicans are both on the top right square (i.e. right leaning and authoritarian leaning).
     
  4. Redac

    Redac Regular Member

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    Fascist corporatism isn't the same thing as a mixed economy. The mixed economy incorporates elements of state intervention into an otherwise capitalist system. The means of production are more or less still privately owned and are being operated to produce a profit. Capitalism isn't just "free market or it's not capitalism", it's about how parts of society relate to the means of production. The capitalist mode of production is still alive and well in the United States.

    Economic stimulus and bailouts are not fascist in nature; they're Keynesian. The fascist state probably does not give a taxpayer-subsidized loan to the auto industry or the financial sector; it would likely nationalize the auto industry if it has shown itself incapable of private ownership, and most likely would have nationalized the banks as well.

    Never mind that Bush was the one who signed TARP, not Obama.

    It's not necessarily an indication of fascism. Heck, Pinochet repressed the people of Chile to a great extent, but there is no way he could be described as a fascist.


    Of course. Fascism isn't exclusive to Nazi silliness.

    Abortion is eugenics? I'm just going to leave this aside for now. Maybe I'll address it when I'm not so dang tired.

    I'm not quite sure what you're asserting here. I mean, a fascist state is about class collaboration between capitalist and worker in the interest of the state as a whole. It doesn't attempt to end class divisions, it just reconciles the two classes by giving them something they can share.

    I didn't pay much attention to the Chicago strike.

    But, besides that, anti-union sentiment is one of those things that is not exclusive to fascism. For example, the union-busting activity of the late 19th century cannot be construed as some sort of road to fascism. The bourgeois tolerates unions, but because unions often stand in the way of profit, they will work to diminish their power whenever possible.

    Describing that as something put out and promoted by Obama as a "civilian security force" seems a stretch at best. City Year is an organization that targets at-risk youth and tries to fight against the high dropout rate in poor areas through community service and such things. It's not "a way to motivate people" to get behind some sort of nationalist sense of unity.

    None of which is means he's a fascist.

    Really. Economic globalization of the sort we're seeing is eroding national and ethnic identity and heritage in many parts of the world in the name of creating wealth for those at the top. It's a globalized capitalist initiative.

    Fascists would not support it not only because fascism is an anti-capitalist ideology, but because they place great importance on the preservation and advancement of their particular ethnic nation (not like Nazis did, obviously).

    You seem to be looking at neoliberalism and calling it fascism.

    See, now you're starting to contradict yourself. If Obama is a fascist, how then is he a puppet of these corporations? Note that these are not corporation in the fascist or corporatist sense; these are corporations in the capitalist, for-profit sense.

    The fascist state does not allow the corporate organs of society (let alone capitalist corporations) to control it; in fact, it's quite the opposite. Mussolini's maxim describes it quite well:
    Everything within the State, nothing outside the State, nothing against the State.

    You can't claim that corporations have the state in their pocket and then call that fascism, because that's simply not what it is. A fascist nation generally will not have any qualms about quite brutally putting down a business or organization that it deems a threat to the state.

    Indeed.
     
  5. Genersis

    Genersis Person of Disinterest

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    In order of presidential candidate i'm most inclined to vote for:
    Jill Stein
    Rocky Anderson
    Barack Obama
    Gary Johnson
    Mitt Romney

    Party platform-wise:
    Green Party.
    Justice Party.
    Democratic Party.
    Libertarian Party.
    Republican Party.
    Constitution Party.

    I was going to post a similar thread a while back, but then a lot of crap happened.
     
  6. Redac

    Redac Regular Member

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    As for the actual thread topic, I'd give Jill Stein and perhaps Rocky Anderson some serious consideration if one of them was the main challenger to Obama. Otherwise, just Obama.

    A Johnson vs Romney race? Ugh, no thanks.
     
  7. Illuminaughty

    Illuminaughty Drift and Doubt

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    I'm already voting for Jill Stein.

    If the election were between Romney and Johnson I would vote for Johnson.
     
  8. Illuminaughty

    Illuminaughty Drift and Doubt

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    Stewart Alexander of the Socialist Party USA would be second choice after Jill Stein.
     
  9. Redac

    Redac Regular Member

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    Are there any really substantive differences between Rocky Anderson and Jill Stein? They seem to be pretty similar to me.
     
  10. seashale76

    seashale76 Orthodox Christian and Unapologetic Iconodule

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    @Redac: I don't have the time to keep this back and forth thing going with you. Sorry, I really don't. My understanding isn't flawed here. I'll leave you with this: The two main US parties have extremely fascist tendencies. I'm not the first person to see the connection and I won't be the last. A lot of people have seen it. We're moving further along the fascist road every day. Don't buy into the Democrat/Republican false paradigm. There truly is very little difference between the two. It's bread and circuses- political theater. Do your research. Don't just google things like 'third position' after you see something you want to disagree with to find talking points against mine. Neoliberalism/Globalization is fascism on a global scale. Yes. It really is. Mixed economics is an inherently fascist solution- Keynesian economics is favored by fascists. I noticed that you tried to separate it out- but it really hasn't been in practice. Americans ignore the 'f' word when it comes down to it- but that doesn't make the truth go away.

    Yet another link (you should go back and read the ones I posted earlier if you haven't):
    What will replace the Constitution in Americans’ hearts? Let’s check for Fascism. « Fabius Maximus
     
  11. abdAlSalam

    abdAlSalam Bearded Marxist

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    I live in a pretty safe Obama state, so I'll be voting third party as a protest vote.
     
  12. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    I'm still going to write in Daffy Duck--
     
  13. Redac

    Redac Regular Member

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    Understandable if you're genuinely too busy to debate. If it's just an excuse to stop, well...

    I'm going to assume it's the former.

    It really is.

    A lot of people claim to see ghosts or to have been abducted by UFOs. That doesn't mean what they think they see is accurate.

    Okay then.

    Please don't condescend to me like I'm some kind of idiot. I've read the Doctrine of Fascism before, I've engaged in discussions about this subject with fascists before. I've read plenty of other discussions on fascist economics. I'm not sitting here googling terms with which I am completely unfamiliar merely for the sake of disagreeing.

    No, it truely isn't. Fascism opposes neoliberal globalization on the grounds that it erodes and otherwise destroys national identity. I already went over this.

    Still false, no matter how many times you say it.

    This just says to me that you have no idea what you're talking about.

    I separate the two because they are different ideologies that are at odds with one another.

    Blog posts like this generally do not interest me.

    Even if your economic analysis were correct (and it most certainly is not), there are much deeper foundations to fascist thought that have to be in place as well. The liberalization of the world's markets does not even begin to approach what fascism is or what it proposes. Your understanding of the term and the ideology is really quite flawed.
     
  14. Jeffwhosoever

    Jeffwhosoever Faithful Servant Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    Donald?

    [​IMG]
     
  15. seashale76

    seashale76 Orthodox Christian and Unapologetic Iconodule

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    @redac: See- I think your understanding of the term and ideology is the one that is really quite flawed- as I think your position on this stems entirely from one of denial and that you have a complete willingness to accept what you're presented from the mainstream political establishment. I don't think you see the big picture. However- I recognized the futility of indulging your apparent need for arguing- and was attempting to leave and not be further goaded into a debate about it with you. You can essentially say 'nuh-uh', I'm right and you're wrong' all evening long- but it won't change the fact that I don't agree with you and that my position has merit. I was willing to explain my position, but you really wanted to 'school me' and 'correct me' and then get upset when I turned around and held my position just as strongly as you did yours and inferred the same as you- that it is you who doesn't have a complete understanding. Your points are not convincing. You want an argument and want to feel like a winner. Plus- I really do have other things I've been putting off that I need to do.
     
  16. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    ^_^^_^---Duck or Trump??---not much difference between any of them!!!:D
     
  17. Redac

    Redac Regular Member

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    Of course you do.

    My position stems from the desire to stop seeing words like "fascist" and "socialist" and all the other popular ones misused to describe something that it is not. Calling Obama a fascist is just as annoying to me as calling him a commie.

    Besides, my views are hardly mainstream, and I'm not sure why you think you've got me pegged so well that you can read my motives over the Internet.

    I'm starting to have just as much a problem with what's going on in the world, but I suspect that my analysis and my approach to it are going to be considerably different from yours.

    You can bow out whenever you want, but it would do you well to stop trying to psychoanalyze me.

    If by "nuh-uh" you mean supporting my assertions with key concepts of fascist doctrine, then yeah.

    You can claim all you want that your position has merit, but your arguments don't seem to bear witness to that claim.

    Do you expect me to agree with your errors?

    I'm upset? Wow, I wish someone would have let me know sooner.

    [​IMG]

    Vabbè, arrivederci.
     
  18. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    I've actually been quite impressed with Stein on a number of levels...
     
  19. Jeffwhosoever

    Jeffwhosoever Faithful Servant Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    Did you see my Jill Stein email, Easy G?
     
  20. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    Was aware of it (as seen in #181 )---although it really didn't seem significant as it concerns where she stands/what she has to offer, IMHO. I kept up with her information primarily from her own website/platform and the discussions on "Democracy Now!" featuring her in sharing her stances, from her thoughts on the live debates to other programs she was involved in and her social activism. ...and other places besides that (more shared earlier here in #236 as well as here and here ).
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2012
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