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If the tribulation has been then Christ must have come!

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by judge, Dec 14, 2002.

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  1. JesusServant

    JesusServant do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

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    Yes God is always with us and He was with them even before the tribulation they went through. Yes He is our God, no doubt, no confusion here. But, you are still ignoring the rest of Revelation 21:4

    We still have death and sorrow and pain, but it probably doesn't fit into your interpretation. You can explain away tears, but not the rest. I'll answer your rebuttle after you explain these in an acceptable manner. If not, it completely debunks preterism.
     
  2. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Death has already been abolished for believers.(John 11:26) 

    Contrary to your assertion, Death will never be abolished for unbelievers.

    Physical death is not the "death" that is being referred to here. All people have an appointment with physical death.(Hebrews 9:27)

    We can not receive our resurrection body until our mortal body has been "sown". (1Corinthians 15:26)

    Then, God gives us a body (1Corinthians 15:38), A spiritual body (1Corinthians 15:44)

    Now, as I said, the pain and tears being spoken of in Revelation 21 are not just any old "pain and tears" as you would have us believe, but is referring to a specific "pain and tears" that were spoken of in the OT. It is not some brand new information dropped out of the sky, but is borrowed from and a direct reference to specific texts in the OT.

    Clearly you are unfamiliar with them. I'll continue to give you the opportunity to search the scriptures to find out where this precident is set. If you are truly a truth seeker that is, otherwise you can continue to hold on to your unsupportable traditions of men and turn away from the biblical answer.
     
  3. JesusServant

    JesusServant do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

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    There isn't much traditional about me, for the last time I ask you to stop labeling me.  How can I even take anything you say with a grain of truth if you belittle me and others and consider yourself the only person on the planet with the right answers?  And your answers do not satisfy the test of the scripture...

    You can put me down, I know exactly that which you try to account the tears to.  So if you use this logic, point out the death, sorrow and pain to the old testament jer/isiah prophecies.
     
  4. LastDazed

    LastDazed New Member

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  5. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    I understand this is an emotional issue for you JS.

    I was once where you are and believed exactly as you do so I know what you are going through.

    I have never claimed to have all the answers, but I do know when somebody is holding on to ther futurist traditions instead of being a Berean. Be a Berean JS.

    Why don't you show me, using the scriptures I cited, exactly how they do not mean what I contend they mean since you so knowingly stated my contentions "do not stand the test of scripture".(BTW, does that mean you believe you are the only person on the planet with the right answers?)

    On the one hand,You seem to agree that Death is abolished today for believers, yet on the other you appear to have this notion that it really isn't yet, or that Death will one day be abolished for believers and unbelievers alike.

    Please show the scripture that teaches this.

    I'm listening.
     
  6. JesusServant

    JesusServant do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

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    Well, at least you've toned down your judgments a little.  Thanks for that.  Okay, I'll bite...

    Parousia70: Contrary to your assertion, Death will never be abolished for unbelievers.

    JS: (Revelation 9:6) And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

    (Revelation 1:7) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

    Ouch, Parousia, hard for the entire world to see something 2000 years ago and have all the texts, historical documents and carvings we have from that era today, yet none show and/or write about an event that the entire world saw and mourned over, pretty odd.
     
  7. LastDazed

    LastDazed New Member

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  8. armothe

    armothe Living in HIS kingdom...

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    Ouch. Hard for the people in the 1st Century who actually sent Jesus to His death (they which pierced Him) to still be alive 2000+ years later to view His 2nd coming.

    -A
     
  9. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    LOLLOLOL....oh...forgive me JS but I had to laugh out loud for that one!!

    THIS is your "proof text" to show how Unbelievers achieve VICTORY over Death?!

    THIS is your scripture of choice to prove how the whole world will one day be free from the curse of death?!

    OK, suit yourself, but good luck finding even one scholar who agrees with you on this.

    Not this again....I have explained this from the get go, but I see I'll have to again.

    JS, Increase the size of your font all you want, it won't change the fact that you are choosing to apply an interpratation of this NT language which is in DIRECT CONFLICT with the precident set for it's interpratation found in the OT.

    Without rhyme or reason, you are choosing to interprate this NT language in polar opposite fashion to the way you  yourself interprate the SAME LANGUAGE in the OT.

    For Example (again):

    Isaiah 52:10

    The Lord hath made bare His Holy Arm in the eyes of all nations.

    JS, why don't you find it equally "ODD" that with all the texts, historical documents and carvings we have from that era, that nobody besides Isaiah recorded such a monumental GLOBAL event as God making His actual arm VISIBLE to every eye of every person of every nation?

    Why aren't you complaining about this with the same furver?

    And I'll point out "AGAIN", that if we apply your NT interpratation to the SAME LANGUAGE found in Isaiah 13 for example, then you and I are not having this conversation because, according to your stated interpratation of this type of language, the WORLD ENDED IN 539BC!!

    Ouch indeed!
     
  10. JesusServant

    JesusServant do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

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    I stopped reading your post, parousia, when you were laughing at me, proof of what kind of person you are I think...

    (Revelation 20:12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

    (Revelation 20:13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

    (Revelation 20:14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

    (Revelation 20:15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    To everyone else that reads this thread:  As you can see by these scriptures ALL dead and living will be judged.  In Rev 20:13 EVERY MAN according to their works... not every man and then some men living later like parousia would like to have you believe.  Death and hell are cast into the lake of fire.  Apparently death has not been cast into the lake of fire as of yet.  This is pretty obvious.  But I'm sure our friendly Christian brother, Parousia, will laugh at me and others, so trying to help him see his mistake here will lead to him making fun of you.
     
  11. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    I wasn't laughing at you JS, I was laughing at your prooftexts, for they do not prove what you claim they do, and I was laughing because I couldn't believe that a person of your obvious intelligence actually believed they did.

    I understand how emotional you are about this issue JS, and It's OK, I dont take it personally.

    I once struggled with the same verses, and chose to ignore them, and lash out at those who posed them to me, just as you are doing. 

    Again, Death has been forever defeated for believers. No further action by God or Christ or anyone will render death any LESS powerful over believers. We already have victory!

    Why you continue to  believe we do not yet have that victory in the face of the overwhelming biblical evidence, baffles me.

    Oh Well, Happy New Year!

    P70
     
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