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If the tribulation has been then Christ must have come!

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by judge, Dec 14, 2002.

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  1. Evee

    Evee Well-Known Member

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    Yes absolutely you can have my blessings.

     I am not mad just don't understand. :pray: Evee
     
  2. JesusServant

    JesusServant do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

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    You do realize, that preterism teaches there is no great tribulation to come right?  Just checking...
     
  3. JesusServant

    JesusServant do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

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    No one is saying mankind is 100% good.

    I have witnessed demonic possession.  I do believe demons are more crafty than they were in the days of the Bible.

    Then please continue to search, I promise you you're missing something... seek in prayer and scripture.
     
  4. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    The Bible, and therefore preterism, teaches that sin entered the world through man. (Rom.5:12)

    The Bible, and therefore preterism, teaches that We are each tempted when we are drawn aeway by our own disires. (James 1:14)

    The Bible, and therefore preterism, teaches that The Heart of man is wicked above all else.(Jer.17:9)   

     
    See above answer

    Being an influence is a far cry from being the cause. 

     
    Like Armothe, I do not personally know of any, but I do know Satan and Demons have no power or authority over those in Christ. Victory is ours, total and complete. 

     
    The Bible, and therefore preterism, teaches that "it is appointed for man once to die, and after this, the judgement" (Hebrews 9:27) 

    The Great white throne Judgement was instituted in 70AD, when the dead saints were resurreted out of hades into God's presence and the wicked dead were thrown into the lake of fire, and continues today, "each in his own order". 

     
    God stamped out evil 2000 years ago for believers, and since at no point will unbelievers ever share in Christs victory over it, we can confidently proclaim Evil has been totaly defeated. 

    The Victory is here! :clap:
     
  5. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    So your saying that even without satanic influence, Man can be wicked?

    I agree. 



    Please elaborate? Was this a documented case, and if so, in what publication might I find a record of it?

    How exactly did you determine it was a demonic posession?
     
  6. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Please stay.

    I'm sorry you do not feel your questions have been answered, and would be honored to continue answer them to the best of my ability.

    Again, search the scriptures to say if what we are saying is true.

    In His Victory,

    P70
     
  7. JesusServant

    JesusServant do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

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     :sigh: It was of a personal nature, it wasn't "publicated" and it wasn't "proven with logic by science", you'll just have to take me at my word.  And if you don't that's fine, it's the truth.  I know no one finds honor in their word anymore.  But I do.
     
  8. JesusServant

    JesusServant do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

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    I notice how you say the Bible, preterism, a lot, which has me finding you a either a liar or misleading.  In the private PM's you sent me trying to convert me, you said, "show me some scripture that proves me wrong, I'd like to see it and adjust my views accordingly" (paraphrased)  You were either lying or misleading.  Anyone who calls the Holy Bible preterism is already set in their ways.

    I have already proven with scripture that you are wrong yet you ignore it.  That is fine and your right, but don't mislead people, that is wrong.

    You have one thing right, when Christ died on the cross he did overcome satan and our victory is in Him.  But it will be on earth one day as He comes for his bride.  God bless you and I would say good luck, but I don't believe in luck.  I hope you fail miserably in trying to mislead people, but I think I'll stick to forums where you cannot pedal your lies and ignore the scriptures.
     
  9. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    The Bible ,and therefore preterism, teaches that the apostles themselves would be alive during the great tribulation.(Luke 21:20-22, Matt 24:34, Matt 16:28, Matt 10:23)

    The Bible, and therefore preterism, then confirms that the tribulation was already underway in John's lifetime.

    Rev. 1:9

    I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
     
  10. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    I'm not saying the Bible is preterism, I'm saying preterism is absolutely Biblical.

    What???

    Are you saying one day those not in Christ will have victory too? 

     :scratch:

     
     
  11. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Hey, I have no problem accepting that you believe what you witnessed was demonic posesion.

    More power to ya!
     
  12. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    I have no desire to "convert" you, or anyone. It makes no difference to me if you are preterist or futurist. It has no bearing on salvation.

    Again, the so called "proof" you have offered is no such thing.

    Your "Proof" It is akin to me citing Jesus comand that we be "Born again" as proof that we must physically pass through our mothers womb a 2nd time.

    You have no respect for biblical precident, you are merely reading your 21st century fantasys into a 1st century document.

     
     
  13. armothe

    armothe Living in HIS kingdom...

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    Thanks for checking. That is correct. Preterism believes the great tribulation has passed - in the first century (view scriptures below). Following the tribulation came the rapture. You see, our chronology of events is the same; the timing is different.

    As posted in reply #27

    Matthew 10:23 (Jesus to the 12)
    When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next; for truly I tell you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

    Matthew 24:9 (Jesus to the 12)
    Then they will hand you up unto tribulation and will put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of my name.

    Luke 21:12 (Jesus- on what happens before the temple is destroyed)
    But before all this occurs, they will arrest you and persecute you; they will hand you over to synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors because of my name. This will give you an opportunity to testify.

    John 16:33 (Jesus to the 12)
    I have said this to you, so that in me you may have peace. In the world you face tribulation. But take courage; I have conquered the world!

    Acts 8:1 (Paul & the persecution against the Christians)
    That day a severe persecution began against the church in Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout the countryside of Judea and Samaria.

    Acts 11:19
    Now those who were scattered because of the persecution that took place over Stephen traveled as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus, and Antioch.

    -A
     
  14. armothe

    armothe Living in HIS kingdom...

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    Great! I need some blessings to buy some holy armor!

    Hope to see you around, Evee!

    -A
     
  15. Evee

    Evee Well-Known Member

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    Hey Armothe I read Revelation 21 and there is no way that all this has happened here on earth.

     We still have oceans they have not passed away.

     We are still dying and crying and there is still pain.

     It  has not gone forever.

     Read revelations 21.

     I haven't gave you my blessings yet.

    I will though soon.

     I was not going to reply again but I just couldn't help myself. Evee ;)
     
  16. JesusServant

    JesusServant do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

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    What fanasies?  I do not believe in 21st or 22nd century anything.  You, like armothe ASSUME that I do.  If you would take time to read what people write and not read INTO what they write you'd already know this about me my friend.

    (Revelation 21:1) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.(Revelation 21:2) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.(Revelation 21:3) And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.(Revelation 21:4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.(Revelation 21:5) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.(Revelation 21:6) And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.(Revelation 21:7) He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.(Revelation 21:8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.(Revelation 21:9) And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.(Revelation 21:10) And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,(Revelation 21:11) Having the glory of God: and her light [was] like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;(Revelation 21:12) And had a wall great and high, [and] had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are [the names] of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:(Revelation 21:13) On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.(Revelation 21:14) And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.(Revelation 21:15) And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.(Revelation 21:16) And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.(Revelation 21:17) And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred [and] forty [and] four cubits, [according to] the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.(Revelation 21:18) And the building of the wall of it was [of] jasper: and the city [was] pure gold, like unto clear glass.(Revelation 21:19) And the foundations of the wall of the city [were] garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation [was] jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;(Revelation 21:20) The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.(Revelation 21:21) And the twelve gates [were] twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city [was] pure gold, as it were transparent glass.(Revelation 21:22) And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.(Revelation 21:23) And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb [is] the light thereof.(Revelation 21:24) And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.(Revelation 21:25) And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.(Revelation 21:26) And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.(Revelation 21:27) And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

    If you call this, Revelation 21, a fantasy then what do you call the rest of Revelation?  I believe this is a promise of Jesus Christ to me, his servant, along with many many many other servants.  And if you think being born again is being reborn in the womb then you haven't read all of John 3.  You sound like Nicodemus.  God bless.
     
  17. armothe

    armothe Living in HIS kingdom...

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    Cool! I'm glad you took the time to read. It really is important that each individual studies the scriptures on their own and come to their own conclusions.

    I'm not sure I want to "get into" explaining all of Revelation at this time, but I will answer your question about the "oceans".

    Revelation uses the word "sea" not oceans. So if you take a literal physical meaning of this word- oceans (and water in general) still exist in the "New Earth". If we were to take "sea" to mean water, then we must conclude that all physical life as we know it would cease to exist. Plant's wouldn't grow, animal life would be extinct, nor would our bodies have any physical aspect whatsoever (our flesh, organs, blood all have water in them).

    However! There is good news. "sea" as mentioned in revelation, has nothing to do with physical water. You see, we must keep in mind that the early Christian church was founded, and was primarily made up of Jews. John speaks to the 7 churches in Asia though typical Jewish poetry - much like Isaiah and many other OT prophets did.

    The idea is that "Heavens and Earth" refer to the Jewish/Hebrew nation & religion. Both Isaiah (1:2) and Micah (1:1) the prophets address the Hebrew nation by this term. The "sea" was commonly referred to as the Gentile Nations. You see, there was a huge distinction between Jews & Gentiles.

    The Greek. word for “new” is  kainos, meaning “new in character” rather than “new in time,” and this suggests that God will renovate the old heaven and earth. Therefore, this passage does not teach that the heavens and earth are now brought into existence for the first time, but that they possess a new character.

    This is exactly what Christ did in the 1st Century. He "renovated" the old Hebrew/Jewish system of reconciliation with God - to now include ALL nations - the gentiles.

    So here in Revelation we have a new "heavens & earth", which is representitive of a restored relationship between God and man, made possible by the blood of Jesus - where there is no longer any distinction between Jew & Gentile.

    This is what is meant by "the sea is no more". There is no longer any distinction between Jew & Gentile in God's kingdom.

    I apologize this was so long, it was the only way to explain it.
     
    I understand, the search for truth in the Bible is an addictive thing.

    -A
     
  18. GW

    GW Veteran

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    Evee,

    First, the vision of Revelation was written about events that were taking place and also soon to take place back in St. John's time (Rev 1:1, 1:3, 1:19; 22:6-7; 22:10-11).

    Next, Revelation 21:4 is applied by the book itself to the martyrs in Heaven in Rev 7:13-17. So, don't forget that.

    Furthermore, we must not ignore that Revelation 21:4 is a borrowed phrase from Isaiah 25:8-10, where the prophet Isaiah was speaking about the downfall of Moab by the Assyrians in the 700s BC, either under King Sargon or Sennacherib (see Isa 15-16). So the prohet Isaiah used the same exact language in his own day concerning an event which pertained to the 700s BC. It was common for the prophets to use the same apocalyptic language over and over again for all of God's doings in history.

    Finally, the oceans are never going to physically pass away as Rev 21:1 symbolically states, neither will the sun and moon go away as stated symbolically in 21:23 and 22:5. Note that Isaiah speaks of a New Heavens and a New Earth that includes a moon (Isaiah 66:22-23). And, Isaiah also said the sea and rivers would dry up, speaking of the downfall of Egypt back in OT times (see: Isa 19:1-6).

    And don't forget Habakkuk's vision of the Kingdom:

    Habakkuk 2:14
    "For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, As the waters cover the sea.
     
  19. Evee

    Evee Well-Known Member

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    Hey Thanks folks, all we can do is study and strive for the truth. :pray: Eve
     
  20. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    JS,
    God is already with us, and He is already our God, and we are already His people, so clearly we are not merely waiting for this to happen.




    Now, since you claim your interpratation does justice to the set precident for this language, please show from the OT where the saints were longing to have their tears wiped away by God. ie: To prove to us you are using OT Biblical precident for your interpratation instead of injecting 21st century opinion, show us where in the OT that the saints did not yet have their tears wiped away, and what event they were waiting for that would "wipe their tears" so they would "cry no more"?

    Chapter and verse please.

    I'm not saying Revelation 21 is fantasy, I am saying your interpratation of it is.

    I am not saying being born again is passing through the womb, I'm just equating your interpratation of revelation with the same nonsense.
     
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