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If the tribulation has been then Christ must have come!

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by judge, Dec 14, 2002.

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  1. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Well, it's certainly dangerous to the Jack Van Impe's, Hal Lindsay's & Tim LaHayes' of the world who's Armani suites, Malibu Mansions and Luxury cars are dependant on you not believing in it!
     
  2. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Why do you claim Jesus is not Ruling Earth today?

    Seems your view of a "non-victorious" Jesus is the dangerous one!
     
  3. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

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    I gather you have no answer to my explanation of Rev. 12, 14-15. That means that the Son of Man has NOT been revealed because we still see people today who do NOT know God and do NOT obey the gospel of Christ (2 Thes. 1:8-9).

    Isaiah 65:17-25 is the prophet Isaiah's vision of the new heavens and the  new earth and what life will be in the Holy City, the New Jerusalem or Zion. The Today's English Version renders verse 20 as follows:

    "Babies will no longer die in infancy, and all people will live out their life span. Those who live to be a hundred will be considered young. To die before that would be a sign that I had punished them."

    This tends to imply that there will be sinners in the New Jerusalem.  However, this is cancelled out by verse 25 which says: "...On Zion, my sacred hill, there will be NOTHING harmful or evil."

    Will there be sinners in Zion? The Bible says NO! Will people build houses for themselves? Jesus says NO! He said he was going to PREPARE a place for his DISCIPLES (John 14:3).

    Now tell me HONESTLY Parousia70. Do Preterists you know live to an average of AT LEAST 100 years old? Are there "no weeping nor crying" among Preterists (Isaiah 65:19)?

    Verse 25 says "the wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock..." Is there a colony of Preterists where we can find this peaceful co-existence?

    Wake up Parousia! Read the papers and find out that priests in sheep's (Jesus, the LAMB) clothing are being exposed right and left for their being as ravenous wolves.

    As apostle Paul wrote to Timothy, we are now in the last days -  perilous times have come (2 Tim. 3:1). All the signs that apostle Paul wrote Timothy (verses 2-8) are all there. Only the blind fail to see these things!

    Ed
     
  4. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Take your time Evee, I sure didn't come to this view overnight.

    In fact I believed as you do for about 18 years and was a shocked as I bet you are when I first heard of preterism. So shocked I was determined to disprove it and set out to do just that.

    Funny thing is, the more I tried to disprove it, the more I came to see it's truth, and I finally was forced by the sheer weight of scripture to adopted it.

    Keep searching, keep asking questions, and beware of people who tell you asking questions and exploring the scriptural validity of preterism is  dangerous!
     
  5. Evee

    Evee Well-Known Member

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    Jack Van impe was quoting Nostradamus as true a while back.

     That put me on edge.

     I knew then he was quite possibly a false profit.

     He is no longer on the air in my area.

     I have also thought Tim Lahaye and Jerry Jenkins were spreading a false gospel.

    I like things to add up and they didn't.

     I think it is disgusting how people profit off of this kind of material.

     I think they are laughing all the way to the bank.

    I wonder if they believe that stuff they write. :sigh:
     
  6. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Ed, Lets examine the scripture in question TOGETHER shall we?

    Isaiah 65:17-23 NKJ

    17 "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind. 18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing, And her people a joy. 19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem, And joy in My people; The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her, Nor the voice of crying. 20 "No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days; For the child shall die one hundred years old, But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed. 21 They shall build houses and inhabit them; They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit. 22 They shall not build and another inhabit; They shall not plant and another eat; For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people, And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. 23 They shall not labor in vain, Nor bring forth children for trouble; For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the Lord, And their offspring with them.

    Here we clerly see, Birth, death ageing, sinners, agriculture, and home building in the New H&E.

    No scripture "cancels" this.

      
     Hey, if nobody is given in marraige int he New H&E, who's "bringing forth children"?  Do people get to have sex without being married in Gods "Perfect utopia"?


    Dance around it all you like Ed, it's fun to watch.
     
  7. JesusServant

    JesusServant do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

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    I don't believe in their fiction either.  But that's what preterism is also, fiction.  I've seen people twist scripture before, but what I've seen in this thread is worse than any pre-trib novel.
     
  8. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Hey, you are the one that claims Jesus isn't King of the earth, not me.

    Who's doing the twisting?
     
  9. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

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    Verse 23 says "they shall NOT labor in vain NOR bring forth children..." This conforms with what Jesus says in Matthew 22:30: "For in the resurrection they neither marry nor given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven."

    The Book of Revelation is "the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God GAVE him to show his servants - things which must shortly take place..."

    Thus, if ever there is any contradiction between what Isaiah says and what the Book of Revelations says, the latter  take precedence over the former because Heb. 1:1-2 teches that God in these last days SPOKE to us by His Son.

    Ed
     
  10. armothe

    armothe Living in HIS kingdom...

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    Either being tormented in the Lake of Fire forever, or totally destroyed. (Depends on what "forever" means in this instance)
    Revelation 20:7

     

    I personally have never encountered a demon, or someone possessed with a demon. Satan has no control over me, thats for sure.

     

    Humans have the capacity to do good, and to do evil. Humans are responsible for the evil in this world. You think if Satan magically disappears man will be 100% good and there will be no more evil & physical death in the world?

     

    Famines come from nature, just like tornadoes, floods, and killer bees. Do you think if evil leaves the earth these acts of nature will also cease?

     

    Because He knows man is capable of good as well. This was the whole reason behind Christ's ministry. It was to provide man a way to appear "good/cleansed" in God's eyes. If you are saved, God no longer views you as a sinner, or evil.

      

    All exist outside of God's Kingdom.
    Revelation 21:27 states "But nothing unclean will enter it, nor anyone who practices abomination or falsehood". This means that evil will still exist- but outside of God's Kingdom. His Kingdom is "not of this world". It resides within Christians believers.

    -A
     
  11. JesusServant

    JesusServant do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

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    Now, see here is where your theory is blown out of the water.  I suppose Jesus had Hitler murder 6 million Jews in WWII.  And for you to say that every tear HAS been wiped away because jews don't wail anymore, and now they can get to God because He's not just in the temple is ludicrous.  You are also ignoring the rest of that scripture...

    (Revelation 21:4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

    This scripture alone proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Revelation has NOT occured.  People still die, I have sorrow for many suffering today.  Christians are being murdered today even moreso than any of the persecutions of the past.  And guess what, that root canal I had a few weaks ago caused pain, I guess there's still pain too.  I will pray that God opens your eyes friend.
     
  12. armothe

    armothe Living in HIS kingdom...

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    So if Futurism is fiction, and Preterism is fiction.....what eschatology do you adhere to?

    -A
     
  13. JesusServant

    JesusServant do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

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    You really are good at twisting words aren't you?  I guess that goes with preterism.  Just because I'm not pre-trib does NOT mean I'm not a futurist.  And in your own words from another thread "nice try".  God bless!
     
  14. armothe

    armothe Living in HIS kingdom...

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    In reply #47 in this thread: http://www.christianforums.com/threads/30081-5.html

    You clearly stated you believed Jack Van Impe's, Hal Lindsay's & Tim LaHayes' views on eschatology were "fiction". They are Futurists. So I conclude you believe Futurism to be "fiction".

    All I asked is for clairification. Where have I erred?

    -A
     
  15. JesusServant

    JesusServant do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

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    No, my friend, they believe a rapture will occur before the great tribulation, there are several views that futurists take.  That's like me saying, if you're Christian, you must believe x, y and z, yet many Christians differ on several topics.  I don't believe in a pretribulation rapture, though I'd love to, I definately don't believe in preterism but I do believe what Revelation says is truly going to happen.
     
  16. Evee

    Evee Well-Known Member

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     So the things that Go on is our own evil? 

     Has nothing to do with Satan?

     So why is there people like Jeffery Dahmers and Hitlers?

     I thought it was because of Satan being an influence.

     There is people that are possed by demons right?

     When is the Great white throne Judgement.

     So if God can't or won't stamp out evil what is he going to do?

    That has been one of the things that many Christians has been hanging on to.

     Hey I think I need to go read my Bible.

     I will be back if I learn anything of value.
     
  17. armothe

    armothe Living in HIS kingdom...

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    Well, there we go. We both believe that Christians have gone/will go through the tribulation. It's a start. :clap:

    -A
     
  18. armothe

    armothe Living in HIS kingdom...

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    If all evil in the world is due to Satan, and mankind is 100% good. Then why did God bother sending Christ to die for our sins?

     

    I've never encountered any. Hollywood would have us believe there are, but I've never seen any, nor have I ever spoken to anyone who has seen a demon or knows of a demon possession.


     

    The judgement happened in the 1st century- at least that is what I believe.
    To stamp out evil (your definition) God would have to destroy the universe so that there would be no more death, famines, tornadoes, solar winds, volcanic erruptions, supernovas...etc.

     
    Please do...don't take my word for it. I've learned to listen to other's beliefs, but to search the scriptures for the truth.

    -A
     
  19. Evee

    Evee Well-Known Member

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    There is no victory at all with this preterist view.

     I do believe That with Satan gone there would be no murders and rapes stealing.

     So God just lets this go on and on and on.

     Whats the whole point this is trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

     That sounds like God has no power at all. 

     My questions has not been satisfactorily answered.

     I want be back posting here it is a bummer. :scratch:  
     
  20. armothe

    armothe Living in HIS kingdom...

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    What about tornadoes and famines? Would those still exist? Those kill people too, you know.

    Many Christians are so quick to blame Satan for their evil actions.
    It's time to own up to our own sins and realize that Christ alone takes away the sin of the world.
     
    Sorry to see you go. Can I have your blessings? :confused:

    -A
     
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