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If the tribulation has been then Christ must have come!

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by judge, Dec 14, 2002.

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  1. danrobinson_92562

    danrobinson_92562 New Member

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    I am going to jump in. Armothe. One verse, Matt 24:32, I believe lets us know the general time of Christ's return. This is the parable of the Fig Tree. Some believe, as I do, that the Fig Tree is a representation of Israel. The verse says, "Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh". Israel lost it's nationhood in 70AD when Ceasar kicked out the Jews. On May 15, 1948, one of the greatest prophecies was fufilled. Israel became a nation again. Ez 37 describes this prophecy. No nation in history, ever lost it's nhood and reclaimed its territory. Only Israel. Anyway, I believe the land of Israel is the branch and the Jews are the leaves. Put one and one together and you have the generation of Christ's return.

    Remember though, this is only my spin on it. Other's may have more insight.

    God Bless
    Daniel
     
  2. LastDazed

    LastDazed New Member

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    Luke's account poses some difficulties with your view.

    Luke 21:29

    Then He spoke to them a parable: "Look at the fig tree, and all the trees.

    Daniel, if the Fig tree represents The rebirth of Israel, what do you think  "all the trees" represent?

    The rebirth of All nations?
     
  3. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Ohhh.. I must agree with LastDazed

    Israel as the Fig tree just dosen't hold up.
    Besides, Israel is described as the "olive tree" far more in scripture than a fig.

    This as merely a parable about signs and seasons.
    Just like when leaves come out ona tree, you know summer is near...same with the signs Jesus mentioned. when the apostles saw them come to pass, they were to know His coming was near.

    The existance of today's political Israel dosen't have anything to do with prophesy.
     
  4. armothe

    armothe Living in HIS kingdom...

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    A generation is equivalent to 40 years. Did christ come in 1988?
    Or, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. The average human life expectancy (worldwide) is about 63 yrs old. So, if someone born in 1948 "saw" the restoration of Israel, then we have until 2011 until Christ comes. I'm willing to wager against this.

    Oh, but I forgot...many say generation means "race" or "people", so I guess my argument won't hold up.

    -A
     
  5. danrobinson_92562

    danrobinson_92562 New Member

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    I guess I am a little puzzled. What makes all of you think the tribulation has already passed? There needs to be some scriptural basis.

    You know, the Mormons and JW believe the top 144,000 in their sects will be the sealed 144,000 in the book of Revelation. They have know scriptural basis for that.

    Please stay between Genesis 1:1 and Revelation 22:21. God's Word tells us all we need to know. There's enough information in the Bible to help all on this post come into agreement if we get past our personal beliefs and read what the scriptures say.
     
  6. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    OK Dan, I'll be happy to explore scriptural precident for past fulfillment of the trib with you, but first, I'd like to know about "all the trees".

    What is the "scriptural precident" you are using to support your belief that Israel is being refrenced as "the fig tree" in Matt 24?

    And if you are right, what did Jesus mean when he included "all trees" in Lukes account?
     
  7. armothe

    armothe Living in HIS kingdom...

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    Matthew 10:23 (Jesus to the 12)
    When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next; for truly I tell you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

    Matthew 24:9 (Jesus to the 12)
    Then they will hand you up unto tribulation and will put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of my name.

    Luke 21:12 (Jesus- on what happens before the temple is destroyed)
    But before all this occurs, they will arrest you and persecute you; they will hand you over to synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors because of my name. This will give you an opportunity to testify.

    John 16:33 (Jesus to the 12)
    I have said this to you, so that in me you may have peace. In the world you face tribulation. But take courage; I have conquered the world!

    Acts 8:1 (Paul & the persecution against the Christians)
    That day a severe persecution began against the church in Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout the countryside of Judea and Samaria.

    Acts 11:19
    Now those who were scattered because of the persecution that took place over Stephen traveled as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus, and Antioch.

    -A
     
  8. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Scripture itself cements the great tribulation to the 1st century.

    Luke 21:20-22.

     
     
  9. JesusServant

    JesusServant do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

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    I don't know how you guys manage to hold on to preterism.  You can't argue half of Revelation and ignore the other half.

    Where is Christ on his throne reigning the nations of this earth?

    (Rev 20:2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, (Rev 20:3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. (Rev 20:4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (Rev 20:5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection. (Rev 20:6) Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Rev 20:7) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,(Rev 20:8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea.(Rev 20:9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.(Rev 20:10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.(Rev 20:11) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.(Rev 20:12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.(Rev 20:13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.(Rev 20:14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.(Rev 20:15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire

    If preterism is true, then we're all now in the lake of fire or we're being ruled by God on his throne in New Jerusalem.  Not only that BUT HE WALKS AMONG US NOW!!! AWESOME!

    (Rev 21:3) And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.(Rev 21:4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

    I cried the other day, nope, hasn't happened yet.  Wake up preterists you're missing out on the hope of Christ's return!  I pray you wake up!!!
     
  10. Evee

    Evee Well-Known Member

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    I don't see satan bound up.

      I haven't seen all tears wiped away.

     In case Jesus has come preterist, Now what?? Evee
     
  11. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Does He have authority over you?

      
    God wipes my tears away daily. 

     
    Now we are to get about our task of acting like the priests and Kings that the Bible says we are.

    We are to call sinners to repent and be saved. We are to be everlasting instruments of the everlasting Gospel.

    You think once Jesus returns, sinners won't need salvation????
     
  12. Evee

    Evee Well-Known Member

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    Well I have thought Satan being bound that he would be in the pit for 1000 years and then turned loose for a little while.

     I had always thought our tears would be wiped away permanently.

    So what happens when we die do we lay in our grave or  do our spirits go back to God?

      :confused: This is all new too me. :wave:
     
  13. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Christ is on His throne in HEAVENLY GLORY, ruling the earth today.(acts 2:30-36), And ALL authority in heaven and on earth is His. (Matt 28:18)

    How you manage to reconcile your Christianity with your assertion Jesus is Not Ruling the earth, is beyond me.

    God is Ruling from His throne in the "Heavenly New Jerusalem", and Jesus walks among us today. ("Wherever two or three are gathered, there I am in their midst.")

    You claim Jesus is absent. Scripture claims He is present.

     

    Why should I hope for something I ALREADY HAVE?
     
  14. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    He was. Now He is defeated permanently.


     

    This you need to go to the OT to understand.

    The Jews long lamented and cried because they were kept seperate from God. God dwelt in the temple, the Jews dwelt apart from God, outside the temple. In contrast, The Church is in the presence of God, the LITERAL Temple of God, indeed the very BODY OF CHRIST! Unlike the OT Jews, we cry no more for God to be with us, He is here.


    We are clothed in our resurrection bodies, raptured into the heavenly realm and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    What do you think happens when we die today?

     
    Thats OK, I remember when it was new to me too! It took a long time to figure out, but it was worth every minute!

    Don't take my word for it, study for yourself and ask questions!!!
     
  15. Evee

    Evee Well-Known Member

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    Thanks,

     So where is Satan at now?

     Many people think he still has an influence.

     What about all the evil in the world now?

     I would think it would not be?

     Will the world ever be free of famines and evil?

     I thought it would be over.

     Why does God tolerate all this evil in the world?

     Murders, Rape, Child abuse and  starvation?

     If he is with us why is all this still going on and when will it stop? Sorry for throwing out so many questions.  Evee
     
  16. JesusServant

    JesusServant do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

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    Every single argument you gave happens without a great tribulation.  Jesus appeared to Saul (Paul) for example, he didn't have to bind up satan.... ah nm... you're not going to change your mind, you just have to be right regardless of what the bible says... Good luck to you and God bless...
     
  17. JesusServant

    JesusServant do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

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    There's reason you have so many, and they'll keep coming.  This has got to be the most dangerous view there is.
     
  18. Evee

    Evee Well-Known Member

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    Hi JesusServant,

     I never heard of this until recently.

     What do you think of all of this?
     
  19. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Thats OK, these are all quesions I once asked too!, and found the answers from the preterist perspective more than adaquate.

    For example:

     Most Christians believe in eternal, or everlasting, punishment. Even if we propose that it is the Devil and "the beast and the false prophet" (Rev. 20:10) who are the only ones who suffer eternally, that would still add up to a cosmos wherein sin and suffering continue forever and ever. To have planet Earth free from sin and suffering while sin and suffering continue elsewhere for eternity (i.e., "the lake of fire") does not solve the philosophical problem of the existence of sin and suffering. Therefore the idea of a universe in which sin and suffering continue for eternity is not at all a uniquely preterist problem. Unless you are a Universalist or an annihilationist, it seems that your objection may have more to do with the locale of sin and suffering than with the mere existence of it.

    Now, it is true that preterists see no prophecy in the Bible which says that every individual on planet Earth will one day be absolutely and literally and in every sense free from all sin and suffering. In fact, preterists do see verses that indirectly say that the existence of sin will continue "forever." Here are some of the verses:

    Ps. 110:4: "Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek."

    Since Christ is a Priest on behalf of sinners "forever," we may infer that sinners will exist on earth "forever" to enjoy the ministry of forgiveness of sins in Christ.

    Rev. 14:6: "...the Everlasting Gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth..." (Rev. 14:6).

    Since the Gospel, which sole purpose is to call sinners on earth to salvation, is "everlasting," this implies that sinners will be born on earth everlastingly to enjoy the blessings of the Gospel.

    In Rev. 22:2, on "the new earth," we see the "Tree of life" that yields fruit every month, the "leaves" of which are "for the healing of the nations" (Rev. 22:2). This teaches us that in the new earth, "the nations" are in need of continual healing.

    I want to make clear that in light of these passages, we must know that the existence of sin in the universe in no way implies the victory of sin. Nor does the continued existence of sin in the universe at all imply a "stalemate" between righteousness and sin. If it did, then we would be forced to say that God has as of yet won zero decisive victories over sin, since sin still exists. The idea that the mere existence of sin in the universe implies the non-victory of righteousness in the universe is an existential philosophy that devalues all that has thus far been wrought by the cross of Christ.

    It seems that some people will never be satisfied with anything less than a fleshly utopia that is characterized by absolute "behavioral errorlessness" throughout the entire universe (except for in hell). In contrast to this idea of how the universe should be, God says that He created "vessels of wrath fitted to destruction" in order "that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy."

    Sin exists, yet God is victorious over sin every day: "Every morning I will destroy all the wicked of the Land, so as to cut off from the city of the Lord all those who do iniquity" (Ps. 101:8).

    The world in which we live is not "the best of all possible worlds" for the wicked. But it is the best of all possible worlds, "to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose" (Rom. 8:28).

    Now, to narrow in on your question, "What do preterists say about the world?":

    In view of the fact that God said His creation is "very good," and remembering that God promised to never again curse the ground or destroy mankind as He did in Noah's day, we cannot possibly expect that God will bring a cataclysmic judgment to end the generations of mankind. It should further come as no surprise to find that the Scriptures tell us that the Kingdom, and the generations of man, and the earth itself are all to continue "forever" (Ps. 104:5; 145:13; Eccl. 1:4; Dan. 4:3,34; 7:14,18,27; Lk. 1:33; Eph. 3:21).

    Some will say that if this is the case, if history is to continue indefinitely with the existence of sin and with no "Second Coming" to bring it to a termination, then that must mean that mankind is stuck in a "status quo" cycle of endless, "go-no-where" history. However, to see that history cannot be so characterized in the full preterist view, we need only to consider the conquering nature of Christ's Kingdom.

    The Bible describes the Kingdom of Christ on earth as a kingdom that will increase until it covers "the whole earth" "as the waters cover the sea" (Isa. 11:9; Dan 2:35; cf. Matt. 13:33). According to the Scriptures, it will increase on earth until all of God's enemies are "under His feet" (I Cor. 15:25). The Scriptures further say that the Kingdom will bring blessing to "all the families of the earth" (Gen. 12:3; Ps. 22:7); to "all the nations" (Matt. 28:19; Ps. 72:17; Ps. 86:9); to "all men" (Isa. 66:23), even to "the very ends of the earth" (Ps. Ps. 2:8; 22:27; 72:8; Isa. 11:9; Zech. 9:10; Acts 1:8; 13:47).

    Though preterists see the above "dominion verses" as being fulfilled in 70AD (and so interpret the verses synecdochically and hyperbolically), preterists necessarily infer from those passages what is the divine character / nature of the Church. The above descriptions of the Church's first-century victory in the world invariable betoken the Church's progressive dominion throughout history. For the Church did not stop being the Church after it was established in 70. Rather,it was established conquering and it forever conquers to the glory of Christ! As the Scriptures teach:

    "May his name endure forever; May his name increase as long as the sun shines...." (Ps. 72:17).

    "There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness from then on and forevermore...." (Isa. 9:7).


    Yet the futurists ask incredulously, "Toward what is history progressing if sin continues to exist and history is not going to end?"

    The goal is none other than that every man of every nation, through the power of the Gospel, attain unto that for which mankind was created: To love God with all his heart, soul and mind, and his neighbor as himself (Matt. 22:37-39; Mk. 12:30-31; Lk. 10:27-28). We must not think that the continued existence of sin on earth invalidates the possibility or the perfection of the realization of that goal.

    Preterists do not know future events, but we are fully confident in the fact that whatever the conquering Savior pleases to do, He does, on earth as in heaven (Ps. 135:6). And when we consider the divine eternality of the Church on earth and her progressive divine dominion, we know that her future, and hence the future of humanity, will be filled to overflowing with innumerable blessings which are even now utterly impossible for us to grasp. For what wonders will God work in and through His more-than-conquering Church after 10,000 years of ecclesiastical progress, or after 1,000,000 years of victory? Only God can know (Eccl. 3:11). What we do know is that in Christ Jesus our Creator and our Redeemer, the future of mankind on earth under His dominion will surely be "exceeding abundantly" and incomprehensibly wonderful....

    "Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us, unto him be glory in the Church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen" (Eph. 3:20-21).


     
     
  20. Evee

    Evee Well-Known Member

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     Wow that is a lot for me to grasp parousia70 at this time.

     I will read this again when my mind is a little clearer.        :confused:    Evee
     
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