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If the tribulation has been then Christ must have come!

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by judge, Dec 14, 2002.

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  1. judge

    judge Regular Member

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    If the tribulation has already happened then the Lord must have already come in "power and glory".

    How can I be so sure? easy! In Matthew 24:29 jesus said..." Immediately after the distress of those days..."the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give it's light, the stars will fall from the sky and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.....At THAT time the sign of the son of man will appear in the sky and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the son of man coming on the clouds of the sky with great power and glory"

     

    HOW MUCH MORE PLAIN COULD OUR LORD HAVE BEEN????

    Immediatly after means immediately after...doesn't it?
     
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  2. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    And yet another thread arguing the same thing, over and over and over. You don't like the answers you get on one thread so you start another one. Okay, J answer me this IF the Lord has come in power and glory why did the entire early church 100-300+ AD NOT know anything about it? I have posted several references, all of which clearly state that day is still in the future.
     
  3. GW

    GW Veteran

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    Great post, Judge.

    And, here's a list of some well-known expositors that have placed the great tribulation at AD 67-70:

    Eusebius
    Chrysostom
    Augustine
    Bishop Thomas Newton
    John Calvin
    John Locke
    Matthew Henry
    Dr. John Owen
    Sir Isaac Newton
    William Whiston
    Jonathan Edwards
    C. Berkhower
    F. F Bruce
    Adam Clark
    C.H. Spurgeon
    John Wesley


    These all taught the Great Tribulation was the siege of Jerusalem of the first century.
     
  4. judge

    judge Regular Member

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    Thanks OS , but can we talk about the scripture rather than the words of men.

    Men tend to get things wrong. But if we look at the words of our Lord then I can only see one way to interpret it.
     
  5. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    That is a a cop out but lets do it. I want you to prove to me from scripture that all of the events prophesied by Jesus in Matt 24 actually, literally ocurred. Especially I want to see the scriptural accounts of the angels sounding trumpets, the Lord Himself appearing in the clouds, like lightning from east to west, in view of ALL (NOT just Rome and Israel) the tribes of the earth, and ALL the saints gathered from the four corners of the earth, from the uttermost part of the the earth to the utter most part of heaven.

    You want to talk about scripture, then talk away!

    And just for the record I don't think John's disciples, Ignatius and Polycarp, or Paul's disciple, Barnabas, tended to get things wrong. Rather, I think it is MEN coming along 2000 years later who are more likely to have it wrong.
     
  6. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    But judge rejects the writings of all men. And I notice that you did NOT mention a single 1st, 2nd, or 3rd century "expositor", like Irenaeus, Polycarp, Ignatius, Mathetes, Origen, etc., some of whom, I have quoted which, oh BTW, ALL say the great trib was still in the future. But they COULD have gotten it wrong, maybe John and Paul didn't know it already happened.
     
  7. judge

    judge Regular Member

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    The indisputable point is that Jesus used the word IMMEDIATELY. He must have come in glory right after the tribulation.

    Whether it was literal or figurative or whatever I can not be sure...but we can be sure that it happened straight afterwaords because Jesus Himself told us.

     

    All the best
     
  8. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

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    judge,

    That's the danger of studying the Bible WITHOUT the guidance of a messenger SENT from God. Even the learned eunuch who was in charge of the queen's treasury needed apostle Philip to walk him through the book of Isaiah (Acts 8:30-31).

    The Bible was NOT written the way a book, a magazine or a newspaper is written. Thus, Matthew 24?:30 has NOTHING to do with Matthew 24:29.

    Matthew 24:29 refers to events that occur AFTER the destruction of Jerusalem while Matthew 24:30 refers to what will occur when the Son of Man is REVEALED with his angels and ALL tribes on earth will SEE Jesus COME down from heaven in the SAME manner that people SAW him go into heaven (Acts 1:11).

    Apostle Paul wrote that when the Son of Man (Jesus) is REVEALED with his angels "in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do NOT know God and do NOT obey the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Thes. 1:8), these will be PUNISHED will everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power (2 Thes. 1:9).

    When the Son of Man COMES in that day to be glorified with his saints (2 Thes. 1:10) ALL his saints will be GATHERED to him (2 Thes. 2:1).

    Now tell me HONESTLY judge, are there people TODAY who do NOT know God? Are there people TODAY who do NOT obey the gospel of Christ? Have ALL the saints of Christ been GATHERED together to him?

    The Bible tells us that the COMING of the Lord (Jesus) is judgment day when UNGODLY people are burned (2 Peter 3:7), the earth and the works that are in it will melt (2 Peter 3:10) and those who are "IN" Christ (dead and alive) will meet Jesus in the air and be with him for ever and ever (1 Thes. 4:16-17).

    Has anyone SEEN any of these happening?

    Ed
     
  9. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    WHAT??

    This one you'll need to prove.

    Prove that Jesus didn't deliver this message in the manner and order that is recorded in the text.

    Prove that Matt 24:29 has nothing to do with Matt 24:30 

    Prove that the phrase "THEN the sign of the son of man will appear....." isn't referring to what takes place at that time that the sun and moon go out, and the stars fall and heavens shake.

    (Note: Then, "Grk" tote, does in fact mean "At that time")

    And please, while you are at it, go ahead and prove that Matt 24:29 referrs to events "AFTER" Jerusalems 70AD destruction

     
     
  10. GW

    GW Veteran

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    OLD SHEPHERD:
    And I notice that you did NOT mention a single 1st, 2nd, or 3rd century "expositor", like Irenaeus, Polycarp, Ignatius, Mathetes, Origen, etc., some of whom, I have quoted


    GW:
    The Church declared the eschatology of all these ones heretical. Their premillennialism simply didn't hold up to the amillennialism of their contemporaries which eventually won out for all in the 300s.

    OLD SHEPHERD:
    which, oh BTW, ALL say the great trib was still in the future.

    GW:
    ??? All of whom?
     
  11. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    False! None of the early church fathers I quoted or referenced were branded heretics. And take careful note, among these were Ignatius and Polycarp, disciples of John, and Barnabas, disciple of Paul.
    Read my posts! All of the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd century fathers who mention the "Day of the Lord"/"Lord's Day of Vengeance." None of the early church fathers, of the first three centuries, as in ZERO, who mention the "Day of the Lord" see it as past. Do you suppose that John and Paul got it wrong and taught their disciples wrong? And it took you guys 2000 years to straighten it out?
     
  12. GW

    GW Veteran

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    Old Shep,

    Irenaeus, Justin, Tertullian, Papias, etc. were all premillennialists (Chiliasts). They had materialistic ideas about some 1000 years earthly reign of Christ--which they also believed was to be in their lifetimes.

    The Church has officially labeled their specific brand of eschatology as heresy. It was their ESCHATOLOGY that was heretical. Neither the Catholics nor the Reformers believe in a literal 1000 years, which was taught by ECFs mentioned above.

    Also, most good ECFs believed the Great Tribulation was AD 67-70.
     
  13. judge

    judge Regular Member

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    Can we get back to the point of the post (please)  

     The point of my post is that the very words of Christ clearly indicate that immediately after the distress of those days certain things would happen.

    How can we deal with the words of Christ except to believe them?

    Even if an angel from heaven said differently whom should we believe? :wave:
     
  14. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

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    What PROOF do you need parousia70? The FACT that there are still people TODAY who do NOT know God and do NOT obey the gospel of Jesus Christ is PROOF that Jesus Christ has NOT been REVEALED.

    Ed
     
  15. armothe

    armothe Living in HIS kingdom...

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    Fine, when it does happen (in our lifetimes?)....afterwards...show me where in the scriptures - where it proves that all the events happened (in our lifetimes).

    Sorry, that can only be done if someone steps up to add another book to the Bible soon after Christ comes again. And we know that won't happen, right?

    So what you ask for is impossible to provide evem when adhering to your eschatology.

    -A
     
  16. GW

    GW Veteran

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    OLD SHEP:
    Do you suppose that John and Paul got it wrong.

    GW:
    No. They got it right. The apostles knew the judgment had come (1 Peter 4:7,17). They knew the antichrist had come (1 John 2:18-19). They knew the apocalypse had come (Rev 1:1-3, 9). This coming was at their door as of the time the book of James was written (James 5:7-9). It was only but a very, very short while away and would not tarry at the time the book of Hebrews was written (Heb 10:37). They were meeting more often as they saw the day rapidly approaching upon them (Heb 10:25). Their generation did not pass before Christ's return (Matt 24:33-34). For those were the Days of Vengeance so that all things which were written would be fulfilled (Luke 21:20-22).
     
  17. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Ed,
    Contrary to your assertion, scripture affirms that adulterers, whoremongers, sorcerours, evildoers, and all types of SINNERS are a very present reality in an on the New Heavens and New Earth. (Rev. 22, Isaiah 65).

    Ed says they can't be there, scripture says they are there.

    I'll stick with scripture.

    Now, instead of throwing up smokescreens, please go ahead and prove what I asked you to prove. (if you can)
     
  18. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    You are absolutely correct Judge.

    Even "1000 years is as a day" can not answer to the word "Immediatly"!
    :clap:
     
  19. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

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    P70,

    Again, you misinterpret what Rev. 22:14-15 is all about. If you go back to verse 12, you'll hear Jesus saying, "..I. am COMING quickly..."

    Verse 14 talks about those who ENTER the flock or CHURCH as Jesus commanded (John 10:9) and Verse 15 talks about those who are OUTSIDE the flock or CHURCH.

    Ed
     
  20. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Nothing about Isaiah 65?
    How do you explain away the sinners there?
     
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