If the price for sin is Hell, how was Jesus' death a just payment?

[Fish14]

Both believers and unbelievers die and are resurrected later. After that, believers go to the New Earth and the rest of the people go to Hell, where they will be permanently separated from God (also called spiritual death). Is that the penalty for their sins or will they be in Hell because they can't pay for their sins? And if spiritual death is the price for sin, how was Jesus' physical death (body and soul separated) a just payment?

 

[Ken Rank]

Both believers and unbelievers die and are resurrected later. After that, believers go to the New Earth and the rest of the people go to Hell, where they will be permanently separated from God (also called spiritual death). Is that the penalty for their sins or will they be in Hell because they can't pay for their sins? And if spiritual death is the price for sin, how was Jesus' physical death (body and soul separated) a just payment?

The wage (price) of sin is death... not hell. Therefore, his death in place of our death was sufficient.

Didn't you start this same thread yesterday, claim you didn't even know the basics of Christianity, and then theologically unload when I shared a concept you didn't agree with?

 

[bling]

This is really a question about the huge topic of atonement.

Do you understand the difference between being “punished” and being “disciplined”?

Dr. Dobson would say: “You discipline your children and never punish your children”.

Think about this:

There is a, one of a kind, Tiffany vase on your parent’s mantel that has been handed down by your great grandmother. You, as a young person, get angry with your parents and smash the vase. You are later sorry about it and repent and your loving parent can easily forgive you. Since this was not your first rebellious action your father, in an act of Love, collects every little piece of the vase and you willingly work together with your father hours each night for a month painstakingly gluing the vase back together. The vase is returned to the mantel to be kept as a show piece, but according to Antique Road Show, it is worthless. Working with your father helped you develop a much stronger relationship, comfort in being around him and appreciation for his Love.

Was your father fair/just and would others see this as being fair treatment? Did this “punishment” help resolve the issue?

Was restitution made or was reconciliation made and would you feel comfortable/ justified standing by your father in the future?

Suppose after smashing the vase, repenting and forgiveness, your older brother says he will work with your father putting the vase together, so you can keep up with your social life. Would this scenario allow you to stand comfortable and justified by your father?

Suppose Jesus the magician waved his hands over the smashed vase and restored it perfectly to the previous condition, so there is really very little for you to be forgiven of or for you to do. Would this scenario allow you to stand comfortable and justified by your father?

What are the benefits of being lovingly disciplined?

Suppose it is not you that breaks the vase but your neighbor breaks into your house because he does not like your family being so nice and smashes the Tiffany vase, but he is caught on a security camera. Your father goes to your neighbor with the box of pieces and offers to do the same thing with him as he offered to do with you, but the neighbor refuses. Your father explains: everything is caught on camera and he will be fined and go to jail, but the neighbor, although sorry about being caught, still refuses. The neighbor loses all he has and spends 10 years in jail. So was the neighbor fairly disciplined or fairly punished?

How does the neighbor’s punishment equal your discipline and how is it not equal?

Was the neighbor forgiven and if not why not?

 

[BukiRob]

Both believers and unbelievers die and are resurrected later. After that, believers go to the New Earth and the rest of the people go to Hell, where they will be permanently separated from God (also called spiritual death). Is that the penalty for their sins or will they be in Hell because they can't pay for their sins? And if spiritual death is the price for sin, how was Jesus' physical death (body and soul separated) a just payment?

The wages of sin is not hell. The wages of sin is DEATH. Big, big, BIG difference

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Greg J.]

Romans 5:13-14 shows us that death still comes even without God's judgment of us. The wages of not being born again in Christ are hell. Jesus was not born in sin and never sinned, so he didn't need any kind of rebirth.

For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. (John 5:26, 1984 NIV)

As you said, Jesus paid our sin debt with his bodily death.

He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed. (1 Peter 2:24, 1984 NIV)

Jesus already paid for our sins, so why aren't we all saved? Because we still inherit our nature from Adam (tainted with sin) unless we choose to make it moral for God to make our old selves "pass away" and get a new self with a nature inherited from God by yielding our life and will to him.

Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. (2 Corinthians 5:17, NASB)

Biblical "death" is separation of our spirit from God (who is the only source of eternal life). Biblical "life" is our spirit being connected to God.

 

[bling]

duplicate

 

[bling]

duplicate

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Albion]

Both believers and unbelievers die and are resurrected later. After that, believers go to the New Earth and the rest of the people go to Hell, where they will be permanently separated from God (also called spiritual death). Is that the penalty for their sins or will they be in Hell because they can't pay for their sins? And if spiritual death is the price for sin, how was Jesus' physical death (body and soul separated) a just payment?

A couple of problems here. First, resurrected believers go to heaven, not a new earth. Second, the damned go to hell which is not a spiritual death but, as you said, permanent separation from God. Jesus' physical death was the equivalent of the sacrifices for sin previously made by the Jewish priests but differed by being the perfect sacrifice never to be equaled or surpassed.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[guibox]

Biblical "death" is separation of our spirit from God (who is the only source of eternal life). Biblical "life" is our spirit being connected to God.

No it is not. There is no support for this and a gross misapplication of what the Greek 'thanatos' means. Death is the cesstion of the life, not the separation of the soul from the body.

 

[Greg J.]

No it is not. There is no support for this and a gross misapplication of what the Greek 'thanatos' means. Death is the cesstion of the life, not the separation of the soul from the body.

I did not say separation of soul from body. Neither do I mean separation of spirit from the body. The support for it comes from examining the effects of life, death, and sin regarding one's relationship with God. It's actually a very good way to understand something that is invisible.

 

[Fish14]

The wage (price) of sin is death... not hell. Therefore, his death in place of our death was sufficient.

So, do unbelievers die because they have sinned? Our sins are against an eternal God. They should be dead forever. Why would Jesus resurrect them and put them to the lake of fire?

Didn't you start this same thread yesterday, claim you didn't even know the basics of Christianity, and then theologically unload when I shared a concept you didn't agree with?

Yes, but I now I tried to rephrase the question to get the answer I want. I also got a bad headache trying to solve the problem myself...

The wages of sin is not hell. The wages of sin is DEATH. Big, big, BIG difference

Why do unbelievers go to Hell then? Also Jesus recognized spiritual death in Luke 9:60. Being spiritually dead is the same as being separated from God in Hell/Lake of fire (Hell is actually a temporal place where people wait for the lake of fire). Thus, Hell is a kind of death.

Romans 5:13-14 shows us that death still comes even without God's judgment of us. The wages of not being born again in Christ are hell. Jesus was not born in sin and never sinned, so he didn't need any kind of rebirth.

For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. (John 5:26, 1984 NIV)

As you said, Jesus paid our sin debt with his bodily death.

How could Jesus pay our sin debt with his bodily death if the wages of sin is hell?

Biblical "death" is separation of our spirit from God (who is the only source of eternal life). Biblical "life" is our spirit being connected to God.

I call those spiritual death and spiritual life. Physical life is when your soul is connected to your body.

duplicate

Or "triplicate"? I created even a third thread with the same question in mind.

 

[BukiRob]

Romans 5:13-14 shows us that death still comes even without God's judgment of us. The wages of not being born again in Christ are hell. Jesus was not born in sin and never sinned, so he didn't need any kind of rebirth.

For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. (John 5:26, 1984 NIV)

As you said, Jesus paid our sin debt with his bodily death.

He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed. (1 Peter 2:24, 1984 NIV)

Jesus already paid for our sins, so why aren't we all saved? Because we still inherit our nature from Adam (tainted with sin) unless we choose to make it moral for God to make our old selves "gone" and get a new self with a nature inherited from God by yielding our life and will to him.

Biblical "death" is separation of our spirit from God (who is the only source of eternal life). Biblical "life" is our spirit being connected to God.

You know, I for YEARS believed in the mainstream teaching of Hell... you know the firery place the sinners and fallen angles went. Where they would be their forever and ever screaming in horror and never ending torment.......

But, then I started studying and made some shocking discoveries..... I discovered that in the Hebrew Sheol is actually the grave and in the KJV its translated as hell.... Oops.

 

[Fish14]

No it is not. There is no support for this and a gross misapplication of what the Greek 'thanatos' means. Death is the cesstion of the life, not the separation of the soul from the body.

If that's true, things would get so confusing that I could get a nervous breakdown.

 

[Ken Rank]

So, do unbelievers die because they have sinned? Our sins are against an eternal God. They should be dead forever. Why would Jesus resurrect them and put them to the lake of fire?

The bible says that when Adam sinned a process leading to his death began. All who follow, also go through that same process. Why? Because the wage of sin is death. So, at the appointed time, Yeshua came, was born without sin (which is key) lived without sinning (which is just as much a key) and then died. But death was not created for perfection and grave could not contain him. He raised, and in doing so won back the dominion Adam lost AND gained the right to perfect all the rest of us. We might still die, but we will be raised at the coming of the Lord.

Why did you say you don't know the basics of Christianity? That wasn't honest.

 

[Ron Gurley]

Jesus the Divine Messaiah, The God-Man, voluntarily shed Holy Blood on the unjust Cross as a substitutional atonement FOR ALL sins FOR ALL mankind FOR ALL time.
ATONEMENT ~= RECONCILIATION (all NASB)

Romans 5:10
For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God THROUGH the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved (SANCTIFIED) by His life.

2 Corinthians 5:18
Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself THROUGH Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,

Colossians 1:22
yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death,
in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—

SUBSTITUTION ~ Jesus died FOR you..in your place

1 Pete 2
18 For Christ also died FOR sins once FOR all, the just (Jesus) for the unjust (Man), so that He might bring us to God, (RECONCILIATION)
having been put to death in the flesh, (CRUCIFIXION)
but made alive in the spirit; (RESURRECTION + APPEARANCES + ASCENSION)

Romans 5:6,8
For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died FOR the ungodly....But God demonstrates His own love toward us,
in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died FOR us.

1 Corinthians 15:3
For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died FOR our sins according to the Scriptures,

1 Timothy 4:10
For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

Acts 10:43
Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Hebrews 10:12
but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, (work complete!)

SALVATION = God's SPIRITUAL calling to ALL + Man's SPIRITUAL acceptance by spirit-led FAITH/BELIEF (John 3 + Ephesians 2)
ACCEPTANCE =>BELIEVER => "HEAVEN"
REJECTION => UN-BELIEVER => "Lake of Fire"


CALLED:

God the Holy Spirit spiritually CALLS and draws the spirit of all Mankind to receive the gift of salvation by unmerited Grace through spirit-led Faith/Belief.



NOT ACCEPT: The natural tendency of Man's un-"born again" spirit is to REJECT GOD. Either he does not spiritually HEAR God's call, or he follows the human tendency to be self centered.


If Jesus knocks, best invite Him in!


Matthew 22: 1-14 ...Parable of the Marriage Feast: guests: both evil and good...wedding clothes = salvation?

14 For many are called, but few are chosen."


Hebrews 3:1 [ Jesus Our High Priest ]

Therefore, holy brethren,
partakers of a heavenly >>calling<<, consider Jesus,

the Apostle and High Priest of our confession;


Romans 11:29

for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.


1 Peter 1:15

but like the Holy One who called you,

be holy yourselves also in all your behavior;


2 Timothy 1:9

who has saved us and called us with a holy calling,
not according to our works,

but according to His own purpose and grace

which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,


Hebrews 9:15

For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant,

so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant,

those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.


Romans 1

6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;

7 to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints (believers)


Romans 9

23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,

even us, whom He also called,

not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.


1 Corinthians 1:9

God is faithful,

through whom you (believers) were called into fellowship

with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.


Ephesians 4:1, 4 [ Unity of the Spirit ]

Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord,

implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called,

...There is one body and one Spirit,

just as also you were called in one hope of your calling;


2 Thessalonians 2:14

It was for this He called you through our gospel,

that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[BukiRob]

If that's true, things would get so confusing that I could get a nervous breakdown.

Sheol is translated by the KJV as hell but it means Grave or the pit. The concept of a soul being cast into a fiery afterlife forever is NOT the belief of the Sons of Israel it is decidedly PAGAN.

Notice what Mary says to Yeshua when Yeshua comes to Lazarus tomb. She doesn't talk about him being in a place called paradise or heaven.... Yeshua says to her John 11:23-27

Yeshua said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.” Yeshua said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?” She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Messiah, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

At no point in this chapter is there any indication other than Lazarus is dead and awaiting the Resurrection. Yeshua in no way corrects or teaches anything that is contrary than the widely held view that you die and await the Resurrection.

The churches teaching of dying and immediately going to heaven has serious flaws. #1 Messiah EXPLICITLY States that NO ONE has ascended into heaven but he that has descended from heaven.

Largely the teaching of saints die and go to heaven is placed on 2 things found in scripture both of which are highly problematic.

#1) Luke 23:24 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise

The problem here is a grammar problem. All of the early manuscripts used to translate greek into english (as well as other languages) imports grammar where in the greek none is found. If you move the comma from you and place it after TODAY the entire meaning changes. By the time the first translations from greek to english were conducted the doctrines of pagan heaven and hell were already DEEPLY rooted into church doctrine.

Rather than telling the thief that he would be in heaven today what Messiah is saying to the thief is Truly I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise. Moreover even if I do NOT move the comma from the thief's perspective the context would be no different. When you die, time from your perspective stops. Time is a construct of space called space/time. Since you are dead you have no awareness of the passage of time. For you when the resurrection occurs no time will have passed for you.

This is what Paul shows as understanding the process to be when he says 23 But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; 24 yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.

Paul being a pharisee would NEVER have agreed that you die and go to heaven but rather his DEEP understanding of the Torah shows that the Dead know nothing (are aware of nothing) and as such death from the perspective of the dead has no passage of time at all. To put it more clearly, from Adam's perspective no time at all will have passed when he is raised.

We are either raised to glory (the first resurrection) or to judgement (the second resurrection) If at the second resurrection your name is not found in the lambs book of life, you are cast into the lake of fire.... Where scripture says they will undergo the SECOND DEATH.

Paul tells us that those raised to glory have to "PUT ON IMMORTALITY" This also destroys the myth of the immortal soul. Indeed Messiah himself tells us DO NOT fear those who can only kill the body but fear HIM who can kill both body AND soul.


1) when you die you go to the grave where you stay until the resurrection
2) Saints put on immortality
3) If your name is not found in the book of life, you are cast into the lake of fire where all of you is utterly and completely conusumed. Nothing of you remains and you are eternally dead. The PUNISHMENT or SENTENCE is eternal but the entity of who you are dies again only this time, you, all of you is completely destroyed

 

[RaymondG]

The bible says that when Adam sinned a process leading to his death began. All who follow, also go through that same process. Why? Because the wage of sin is death. So, at the appointed time, Yeshua came, was born without sin (which is key) lived without sinning (which is just as much a key) and then died. But death was not created for perfection and grave could not contain him. He raised, and in doing so won back the dominion Adam lost AND gained the right to perfect all the rest of us. We might still die, but we will be raised at the coming of the Lord.

Why did you say you don't know the basics of Christianity? That wasn't honest.

I have a question. You say Adam (one man) sinned and affected everyone born after him. Why do you feel that what Jesus did, doesnt affect everyone born after Him as well? Was Adam's sin more powerful than Jesus' Sacrifice?