If the New Covenant was made with Judah and Israel, how does it apply to Gentile Christians?

[bugkiller]

I can agree with part of that, but I'm not much of a dispensationalist. I agree that the New Covenant didn't change any of the conditions or commandments in the Sinai covenant. God said what was new is that the Torah (Law) would be written on Israel's hearts, not on stone tablets or scrolls, so it would become second nature for them to obey. Instead of God's commandments being delivered externally, they would be woven into Jewish nature itself.

As near as I can figure out, and given the legal nature of covenants, non-Jewish disciples get to benefit from the blessings of the New Covenant only through devotion to and obedience of Jesus as the Messiah of Israel. It's like we've been granted an honorary position solely through God's grace and mercy.

No because the word translated "New" means to cut a new stone. Secondly the phrase "not according to.... which means unlike in content disallows that view.

Not a single one of the gentile converts in Acts were joined to the NC by Jewish rites or the law. You might say wait up there because Paul had one circumcised. Please note the text conveys the purpose was for evangelism of the Jews and not salvation.

bugkiller

 

[Jerry Shugart]

From what i can understand the New Covenant promised to the house of Israel and to the house of Judah has not yet been fulfilled:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33. But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).

According to this the fathers of those who will make up the houses of Israel and Jacob will the the physical descendants of Israel because it was them who broke the covenant. Since their fathers are the physical descendants of Israel then they will also be the physical descendants of Israel.

When this prophecy will be fulfilled then all of the physical descendants of Israel who belong to both houses will know the Lord "from the least of them unto the greatest of them" and they will all have their sins forgiven and will all be saved.

This has never happened in the past so its fulfillment remains in the future.​

 

[bloodygrace]

From what i can understand the New Covenant promised to the house of Israel and to the house of Judah has not yet been fulfilled:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33. But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).

According to this the fathers of those who will make up the houses of Israel and Jacob will the the physical descendants of Israel because it was them who broke the covenant. Since their fathers are the physical descendants of Israel then they will also be the physical descendants of Israel.

When this prophecy will be fulfilled then all of the physical descendants of Israel who belong to both houses will know the Lord "from the least of them unto the greatest of them" and they will all have their sins forgiven and will all be saved.

This has never happened in the past so its fulfillment remains in the future.​

There was no house of Israel in the 1st century! All the disciples were most likely from Judah or Benjamin aka the house of Judah.

 

[BABerean2]

From what i can understand the New Covenant promised to the house of Israel and to the house of Judah has not yet been fulfilled:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33. But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).

According to this the fathers of those who will make up the houses of Israel and Jacob will the the physical descendants of Israel because it was them who broke the covenant. Since their fathers are the physical descendants of Israel then they will also be the physical descendants of Israel.

When this prophecy will be fulfilled then all of the physical descendants of Israel who belong to both houses will know the Lord "from the least of them unto the greatest of them" and they will all have their sins forgiven and will all be saved.

This has never happened in the past so its fulfillment remains in the future.​

Heb 8:6　 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.　
(Present tense during the first century)

Heb 8:7　 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.　

Below we find the exact text from Jeremiah 31:31-34 copied word for word to show its fulfillment in verses 6 and 13 of this passage. In the NKJV the Old Testament text is in Uppercase letters.

Heb 8:8　 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—　
Heb 8:9　 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.　
Heb 8:10　 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.　
Heb 8:11　 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.　
Heb 8:12　 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
　
Heb 8:13　 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.　
(Present tense during the first century)


Heb 9:15　 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.　
(Present tense during the first century)


Heb 10:16　 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR HEARTS, AND IN THEIR MINDS I WILL WRITE THEM,"　
Heb 10:17　 then He adds, "THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."　
Heb 10:18　 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.　
(Present tense during the first century)


Heb 12:18　 For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest,　
Heb 12:19　 and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore.　
Heb 12:20　 (For they could not endure what was commanded: "AND IF SO MUCH AS A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT SHALL BE STONED OR SHOT WITH AN ARROW."　
Heb 12:21　 And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, "I AM EXCEEDINGLY AFRAID AND TREMBLING.")　

In the passages below we have the New Covenant specifically applied to the Church.

Heb 12:22　 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,　
Heb 12:23　 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,　
Heb 12:24　 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.　


2Co 3:6　 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.　
2Co 3:7　 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,　
2Co 3:8　 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?
　

Mat 26:28　 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.　

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[Jerry Shugart]

There was no house of Israel in the 1st century! All the disciples were most likely from Judah or Benjamin aka the house of Judah.

So? I did not say that the prophecy has been fulfilled.

 

[Honoluluwindow]

It always bothered me that there was such a disconnect from the Old Testament to the New Testament. If God meant to graft the nations into Israel (and the nature of that grafting is a conversation in and of itself), why wasn't it explicitly prophesied?

The olive tree is not Israel. It is the place of spiritual blessings that belong to Israel. To claim that Gentiles are grafted into Israel is untrue the Gentiles have been made partakers and not overtakers and only until the set number of Gentiles are brought into the body of Messiah.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

2Co 3:6　 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.　
2Co 3:7　 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,　
2Co 3:8　 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament (diatheke); not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life" (2 Cor.3:6; KJV).

When we look at the words describing the New Diatheke (the spirit giveth life) we can understand that the ministry in question is preaching the gospel. That is the ministry which Paul speaks of here:

"But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God" (Acts 20:24).

John Calvin certainly understood that Paul was speaking of the ministry to preach the gospel, writing the following:

"'Not of the letter but of the spirit'...There is, however, no doubt, that by the term 'letter,' he means the Old Testament, as by the term 'spirit' he means the gospel; for, after having called himself a 'minister of the New Testament,' he immediately adds, by way of exposition, that he is a 'minister of the spirit,' and contrasts the letter with the spirit" [emphasis added] (John Calvin, Commentary on Corinthians - Volume 2, Christian Classics Ethereal Library).

In the Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary we read the following remarks on 2 Corinthians 3:6:

"spirit giveth life--The spirit of the Gospel when brought home to the heart by the Holy Spirit, gives new spiritual life to a man (Ro 6:4, 11)" [emphasis added] (Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary, Commentary at 2 Corinthians 3:6).

Therefore, we can understand that when Paul uses the word diatheke at 2 Corinthians 3:6 the meaning of that word is the "gospel."

 

[Dave-W]

No we get graft into the Root which is not Israel. The Root is Jesus. We live in Jesus and Jesus lives in us.

Bad exegesis.

 

[BABerean2]

Therefore, we can understand that when Paul uses the word diatheke at 2 Corinthians 3:6 the meaning of that word is the "gospel."

The following words were used by the Apostle Paul.

G2098- Greek "euaggelion"= English- gospel


G1242- Greek "diatheke"= English- covenant or testament

Paul also used the same word "diatheke" in the verse below.

Gal 4:24　 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar—　



We cannot change the meaning of words to make our doctrine work.
Once we go down that path the Bible becomes meaningless.


2Co 3:6　 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.　(G1242)


The books written during the first century by the Apostles of Christ and the first Christians are about the New Covenant fulfilled by the Blood of Christ at Calvary.

New Testament=New Covenant

Mat 26:28　 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.　


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[BABerean2]

The olive tree is not Israel. It is the place of spiritual blessings that belong to Israel. To claim that Gentiles are grafted into Israel is untrue the Gentiles have been made partakers and not overtakers and only until the set number of Gentiles are brought into the body of Messiah.

You are ignoring that fact that during the first few years of the Church almost all of its members were Israelites.
On the Day of Pentecost Peter addressed the crowd as "men of Judea", then as "men of Israel", and in Acts 2:36 as "all the house of Israel".

The Church as a whole has never been a "Gentile Church".

You are also ignoring what Paul said in Romans 11.


Rom 11:1　 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.　


Gentiles Grafted In (subtitle from the NKJV)

Rom 11:11　 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.　
Rom 11:12　 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!　
Rom 11:13　 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,　
Rom 11:14　 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.　
Rom 11:15　 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?　
Rom 11:16　 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.　
Rom 11:17　 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,　
Rom 11:18　 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.　
Rom 11:19　 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in."　
Rom 11:20　 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.　
Rom 11:21　 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.　
Rom 11:22　 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.　
Rom 11:23　 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.　
Rom 11:24　 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?　




Gal 6:15 Certainly, it doesn't matter whether a person is circumcised or not. Rather, what matters is being a new creation.
Gal 6:16 Peace and mercy will come to rest on all those who conform to this principle. They are the Israel of God.
GW
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[bloodygrace]

So? I did not say that the prophecy has been fulfilled.

It was fulfilled when God brought in the Gentiles to fill the ranks of the fallen house of Israel. Paul even says this when he quotes the prophet Hosea in Romans 9 and applies it to the gentiles. When we go to the book of Hosea in chap. 1 and 2 the prophet is talking about the house of Israel or the ten northern tribes who were cast off by God and then are later said to be God's people who were not God's people.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The following words were used by the Apostle Paul.

G2098- Greek "euaggelion"= English- gospel


G1242- Greek "diatheke"= English- covenant or testament

Yes, diatheke is used to refer to a "testament," specifically the Last Will and Testament of the Lord Jesus. When we look at the following verse we can know that the word "testament" is in regard to the Lord Jesus' Last Will and Testament:

"For where a testament (diatheke) is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament (diatheke) is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth" (Heb.9:16-17).
​

In his commentary on Hebrews 9:15-22 Matthew Henry wrote that "In these verses the apostle considers the gospel under the notion of a will or testament, the new or last will and testament of Christ..." (Matthew Henry, Commentary on Hebrews 9:15-22)

John Frahm wrote that "the use of the word 'testament' confesses more fully the Gospel promises and cross-focused content of Christ's person and work that is distributed Sunday after Sunday in the Divine Service" [emphasis added] (Frahm, The Lord's Supper as Christ's Last Will and Testament).

Therefore, we can conclude that at 2 Corinthians 3:16 Paul was referring to the Lord Jesus' Last Will and Testament, the gospel, and not to a "covenant."

Besides that, you have never even addressed my comments on Jeremiah 31:31-34 which demonstrate that the fulfillment of the prophecy in regard to the New Covenant promised to Israel remains in the future.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The olive tree is not Israel. It is the place of spiritual blessings that belong to Israel.

I would say that they once belonged to Israel. Now they belong to those in the Body of Christ where there is no distinction between Jews and Gentiles.

 

[BABerean2]

Besides that, you have never even addressed my comments on Jeremiah 31:31-34 which demonstrate that the fulfillment of the prophecy in regard to the New Covenant promised to Israel remains in the future.

I will let the writer of the Book of Hebrews do that for me in the text below.

Heb 8:6　 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.　(Present tense during the first century)

Heb 8:7　 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.　

Below we find the exact text from Jeremiah 31:31-34 in Uppercase type.

Heb 8:8　 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—　
Heb 8:9　 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.　
Heb 8:10　 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.　
Heb 8:11　 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.　
Heb 8:12　 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."　
Heb 8:13　 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.　
Verse 13 above reveals that the New Covenant made the Old Covenant "obsolete" during the first century.

In the passage below the word "testament" is used along with the word "covenant".
Testament is used in the way we use it today, as in a "Last Will and Testament".

Heb 9:15　 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.　
Heb 9:16　 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.　
Heb 9:17　 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.　
Heb 9:18　 Therefore not even the first covenant was dedicated without blood.
　

Heb 12:22　 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,　
Heb 12:23　 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,　
Heb 12:24　 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.　


In the passage above we find the New Covenant of Christ specifically applied to the Church.

Can you tell me why you need the New Covenant to not be in effect now?

Does the fulfillment of the New Covenant threaten your system of Bible interpretation in some way?

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[Jerry Shugart]

I will let the writer of the Book of Hebrews do that for me in the text below.

Heb 8:6　 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.　(Present tense during the first century)

"Therefore, He is the mediator of a new testament (diatheke), so that those who are called might receive the promise of the eternal inheritance, because a death has taken place for redemption from the transgressions committed under the first covenant (diatheke)" (Heb.9:15).​

At Hebrews 9:15 the promise which is in regard to the "New Diatheke" is about an "inheritance," and under a Last Will and Testament it is the "heirs" who receive this inheritance.

In his commentary on Hebrews 9:15 Elliott E. Johnson writes that "In Hebrews, the heirs of the will and testament are 'those who are called'" (Dispensational Understanding of the New Covenant, ed. Mike Stallard [Schaumburg, Illinois: Regular Baptist Books, 212], 227).

That is in accordance with the Scriptures which declares that one becomes a heir by the Lord Jesus' Last Will and Testament, the gospel:

"That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel" (Eph.3:6).​

Also, Hebrews 9:15 refers to "those who are called" and it is the unsaved who are called by the gospel:

"Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Cor.2:14).​

Why do you continue to refuse to address my points about the fact that the fulfillment of the prophecy concerning the New Covenant found at Jeremiah 31:31-34 remains in the future? I have now addressed two different passages which you have presented but you continue to refuse to address my point.

 

[Honoluluwindow]

I would say that they once belonged to Israel. Now they belong to those in the Body of Christ where there is no distinction between Jews and Gentiles.

Who is they? The olive tree or the blessings of the Abrahamic Covenant?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Who is they? The olive tree or the blessings of the Abrahamic Covenant?

The blessings!

 

[jamespyles]

No because the word translated "New" means to cut a new stone. Secondly the phrase "not according to.... which means unlike in content disallows that view.

Not a single one of the gentile converts in Acts were joined to the NC by Jewish rites or the law. You might say wait up there because Paul had one circumcised. Please note the text conveys the purpose was for evangelism of the Jews and not salvation.

bugkiller

Then how do you explain that non-Jews are in anyway associated with a covenant only made with Judah and Israel. You have no "smoking gun".

 

[jamespyles]

The olive tree is not Israel. It is the place of spiritual blessings that belong to Israel. To claim that Gentiles are grafted into Israel is untrue the Gentiles have been made partakers and not overtakers and only until the set number of Gentiles are brought into the body of Messiah.

I'll buy that as far as it goes. We can't be grafted in to Israel since we are not Israel nor shall we non-Jews ever be.

 

[bloodygrace]

Then how do you explain that non-Jews are in anyway associated with a covenant only made with Judah and Israel. You have no "smoking gun".

Because not everyone is a dispensational Christian who wrests the scriptures. Under the old covenant the houses of God were ethnic and of the flesh. Under the new covenant they become spiritual and houses of faith. You have to have faith and the Holy Spirit to be under the new covenant.