If the New Covenant was made with Judah and Israel, how does it apply to Gentile Christians?

bloodygrace

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I'll buy that as far as it goes. We can't be grafted in to Israel since we are not Israel nor shall we non-Jews ever be.

The olive tree supports the branches and the branches are said to be Israel so the idea that Israel is cut off or grafted back into Israel is nonsensical. The olive tree most likely represents the Abrahamic covenant which Israel could have been broken off of by unbelief and the Gentiles could have been grafted into by faith. Don't forget Abraham was a Gentile and the distinction between Jew and Gentile didn't occur until Jacob the father of Israel. Gentiles who are grafted into the Abrahamic covenant are really being grafted into a natural or everlasting covenant that God made with Abraham the father of many nations.
 
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Steve Petersen

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The Talmud speaks of two Gentiles grafted into Abraham. Maybe this is the imagery that Paul was alluding to. Though the Talmud was compiled in the 9th or 10th centuries, the tradition below may be earlier.

'R. Eleazar further stated: What is meant by the text, And in thee shall the families of the earth be blessed? The Holy One, blessed be He, said to Abraham, `I have two goodly shoots to engraft on you: Ruth the Moabitess and Naamah the Ammonitess'. All the families of the earth, even the other families who live on the earth are blessed only for Israel's sake. All the nations of the earth, even the ships that go from Gaul to Spain are blessed only for Israel's sake.' (b. Yevamoth 63a)
 
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BABerean2

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I'll buy that as far as it goes. We can't be grafted in to Israel since we are not Israel nor shall we non-Jews ever be.

You can only make that work by ignoring Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 12:18-24.

Ruth was a Moabite who was grafted into Israel through faith.

Based on Galatians 3:16,29, I am the seed of Abraham and inherit the promises made to him through the One Seed, who is Christ. I have been adopted into the family of God through His Son, Jesus Christ.
What more could a person want, or expect?


Gal 6:15 Certainly, it doesn't matter whether a person is circumcised or not. Rather, what matters is being a new creation.
Gal 6:16 Peace and mercy will come to rest on all those who conform to this principle. They are the Israel of God.

GW

.
 
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jamespyles

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Because not everyone is a dispensational Christian who wrests the scriptures. Under the old covenant the houses of God were ethnic and of the flesh. Under the new covenant they become spiritual and houses of faith. You have to have faith and the Holy Spirit to be under the new covenant.
That's quite fine if I want to completely ignore what the Bible actually says about the New Covenant and spiritualize it just because it makes me feel better as a non-Jew.
 
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jamespyles

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You can only make that work by ignoring Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 12:18-24.

Ruth was a Moabite who was grafted into Israel through faith.

Based on Galatians 3:16,29, I am the seed of Abraham and inherit the promises made to him through the One Seed, who is Christ. I have been adopted into the family of God through His Son, Jesus Christ.
What more could a person want, or expect?


Gal 6:15 Certainly, it doesn't matter whether a person is circumcised or not. Rather, what matters is being a new creation.
Gal 6:16 Peace and mercy will come to rest on all those who conform to this principle. They are the Israel of God.

GW

.
Do you mean Sermon Review of the Holy Epistle to the Hebrews: The New Covenant? Rather than "reinvent the wheel," here's my take on the New Covenant in brief: Briefly Revisiting Gentiles and the New Covenant
 
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Steve Petersen

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That's quite fine if I want to completely ignore what the Bible actually says about the New Covenant and spiritualize it just because it makes me feel better as a non-Jew.

It's a very common ploy. If you turn something into an abstraction you can twist it into anything you like. The Bible becomes putty in our hands.
 
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bloodygrace

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That's quite fine if I want to completely ignore what the Bible actually says about the New Covenant and spiritualize it just because it makes me feel better as a non-Jew.

The bible actually says the Gentiles received the Holy Spirit in the book of Acts to the amazement of the Jews and apparently the dispensational minded folk. Paul said being a Jew meant having a circumcised heart and the last time I checked Gentiles or non-ethnic Jews can have their hearts circumcised. Christians have been observing the Lord's supper for 2000 years but oh wait here come the dispensationals to tell everyone the church has been wrong for 2000 years. Maybe the dispensationals are wrong and it's definitely not a maybe.
 
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bloodygrace

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bloodygrace

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Where was the house of Israel in the 1st century or the 5th century or the 10th century or the 21st century? The ethnic house didn't exist 2000 years ago so what are the chances of them existing today. The Samaritans were some of the remnants of the lost tribes and the Jews themselves rejected them.
 
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jamespyles

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Unbelievers are excluded from the new covenant promise both Jew and Gentile alike. Tell me why were the Jews broken off of the olive tree? Was it because of a lack of faith or a lack of ethnicity?
Gentile believers in Jesus were included in the blessings of the New Covenant by mercy and grace alone, not because we are actual covenant members as we see in Jeremiah 31, and Ezekiel 36. It's a wonderful gift, that through our devotion and faith in the Jewish Messiah King, we too can merit a place in the world to come. I don't see why so many Christians resist that idea and insist that they are better than the Jews who are in fact, the named members of the covenant.
 
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bloodygrace

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Gentile believers in Jesus were included in the blessings of the New Covenant by mercy and grace alone, not because we are actual covenant members as we see in Jeremiah 31, and Ezekiel 36. It's a wonderful gift, that through our devotion and faith in the Jewish Messiah King, we too can merit a place in the world to come. I don't see why so many Christians resist that idea and insist that they are better than the Jews who are in fact, the named members of the covenant.

False. There's only one covenant that removes sin and writes Gods law in our heart. You personally are excluded from this covenant because you lack faith and the power of the Holy Spirit.
 
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jamespyles

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False. There's only one covenant that removes sin and writes Gods law in our heart. You personally are excluded from this covenant because you lack faith and the power of the Holy Spirit.
If that's how you feel, fine. I know these forums can be contentious and graciousness is sometimes limited. I'm glad I will be judged by God and not by humans.
 
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bloodygrace

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If that's how you feel, fine. I know these forums can be contentious and graciousness is sometimes limited. I'm glad I will be judged by God and not by humans.

I've met Christians like you before who write Gentiles out of the new covenant because Israel is always ethnic in your eyes. Paul an actual ethnic Jew had a much different understanding. Those with circumcised hearts (conversion) were part of the new covenant, Jew and Gentile alike.
 
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jamespyles

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I've met Christians like you before who write Gentiles out of the new covenant because Israel is always ethnic in your eyes. Paul an actual ethnic Jew had a much different understanding. Those with circumcised hearts (conversion) were part of the new covenant, Jew and Gentile alike.
As you will. In the end, it will be God who fulfills his emerging New Covenant upon the world, not you or I. Be well.
 
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bloodygrace

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As you will. In the end, it will be God who fulfills his emerging New Covenant upon the world, not you or I. Be well.

You can't even admit there was no house of Israel 2000 years ago let alone in the future! Dispensational Darbyism the curse of Christianity.
 
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Steve Petersen

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I've met Christians like you before who write Gentiles out of the new covenant because Israel is always ethnic in your eyes. Paul an actual ethnic Jew had a much different understanding. Those with circumcised hearts (conversion) were part of the new covenant, Jew and Gentile alike.

 
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Ken Rank

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I've been following and commenting in a couple of discussions including Did Jesus tell us to follow Moses 10 commandments? and GENTILES OR CHRISTIANS PRACTICING THE SABBATH ? and I struggle to make what I consider valid points of response without writing long essays.

I've blogged on topics such as Hebrew Roots and Messianic Judaism and how they interact with and sometimes oppose traditional Protestant theology and doctrine, so I've got a lot of material to draw from.

For your consideration, I'd like to ask the question that given the New Covenant language we find in Jeremiah 31 and Ezekiel 36 where God specifically makes that covenant with the House of Judah and the House of Israel, how exactly does that covenant apply to the rest of the world?

The mechanism isn't specifically defined in the Bible. Even Jesus's comments in Matthew 26, Luke 22, and Mark 14 about "This cup is the new covenant in my blood" (usually rendered in the Greek as just "covenant") doesn't make the connection. In other words, there's no direct tie in between what we read in Jeremiah and Ezekiel, and Jesus's statement in the Gospels.

I believe there is an answer. It's a long one, longer than I care to post here, but you can read a summary of my thoughts here: Briefly Revisiting Gentiles and the New Covenant.

I'm partially creating this thread to read how others think about all this (no flame wars, please), but mainly to put the idea out there that how the Church has traditionally considered the New Covenant and interpreted the Bible to support their doctrine may be missing a few things.

Let me know what you think. Thanks.
If you remember, when the foreigners (strangers) came out of Egypt with Israel during the Exodus, we see three unique things happen.

1. They were to be treated as if native born. This means they were to be treated as if they were Israel.

2. The Torah was given to them as well, and they would be blessed if they kept it and cursed if they did not.

3. They were commanded to assimilate into the tribes they traveled with. In other words, they were grafted in....

If the covenant is made with only Judah and Israel... and that IS what the text says... then the believing gentiles who come in faith are simply grafted into Israel in the same manner gentiles coming out of Egypt were grafted in.

The word "gentile" was used in our first English bibles, it appeared like this "gentyls" in Tyndale's work, Wycliffe just used the word "hethene." Now when this word was used early in the English language, it meant heathen, pagan, anyone who wasn't a Jew or Christian (source, Webster 1828). But TODAY the word has evolved to mean, "any believer who is not Jewish." But that doesn't reflect the underlying Greek (ethnos) and Hebrew (goyim) which are best translated as nations, but any nation not Israel. What I am getting at is when we come in faith we cease being a gentile and should expect to be "treated as if native born." We have come to the God of Israel through the messiah of Israel and thus become a part of Israel. This is Paul's point in Eph. 2 where he says "you WERE gentiles in the flesh," and "WERE aliens of the Commonwealth of Israel" but "are NOW fellow citizens."

Truly in Scripture, a "gentile Christian" is an oxymoron... but in today's religious culture, it is a term worn as a badge of honor. :scratch:
 
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bloodygrace

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If you remember, when the foreigners (strangers) came out of Egypt with Israel during the Exodus, we see three unique things happen.

1. They were to be treated as if native born. This means they were to be treated as if they were Israel.

2. The Torah was given to them as well, and they would be blessed if they kept it and cursed if they did not.

3. They were commanded to assimilate into the tribes they traveled with. In other words, they were grafted in....

If the covenant is made with only Judah and Israel... and that IS what the text says... then the believing gentiles who come in faith are simply grafted into Israel in the same manner gentiles coming out of Egypt were grafted in.

The word "gentile" was used in our first English bibles, it appeared like this "gentyls" in Tyndale's work, Wycliffe just used the word "hethene." Now when this word was used early in the English language, it meant heathen, pagan, anyone who wasn't a Jew or Christian (source, Webster 1828). But TODAY the word has evolved to mean, "any believer who is not Jewish." But that doesn't reflect the underlying Greek (ethnos) and Hebrew (goyim) which are best translated as nations, but any nation not Israel. What I am getting at is when we come in faith we cease being a gentile and should expect to be "treated as if native born." We have come to the God of Israel through the messiah of Israel and thus become a part of Israel. This is Paul's point in Eph. 2 where he says "you WERE gentiles in the flesh," and "WERE aliens of the Commonwealth of Israel" but "are NOW fellow citizens."

Truly in Scripture, a "gentile Christian" is an oxymoron... but in today's religious culture, it is a term worn as a badge of honor. :scratch:

So where was the house of Israel in the 1st century? How does God ratify a covenant with a missing house? And the Samaritans don't count.
 
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Ken Rank

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So where was the house of Israel in the 1st century? How does God ratify a covenant with a missing house? And the Samaritans don't count.
In the nations where God scattered them but WITH a promise to be called back.That is how it will be "ratified"... He will call them back AS PROMISED many times.
 
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