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IF THE LAW OF MOSES WAS SET ASIDE , WHY ROM 13:9?

Discussion in 'Sabbath and The Law' started by Dan Perez, Apr 5, 2022.

  1. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That helps considerably to mention. Thank you. I had read it and thought about it, but was not sure until you mentioned it specifically, that that was your tack.

    But your point is not then, is it, that they did no wrong, but that God does not count it against them —in other words, he was not actually offended? That still doesn't sound like what I believe. Though I will admit to having a LOT of teaching from an Arminian-ish viewpoint, and have yet to tie what I have slowly come to believe in the last 40 or so years, to everything I learned as a youngster. I have a long way to go before I can discard all the old ways of thinking.

    But in short, my view of Romans 3 to 5 (and more) has not been that the discourse was referring actually to those before the law of Moses, but a rhetorical use of what goes on in the mind of those who are apart from the law of Moses, or indeed, any law of God. (After all, ignorance is no excuse either). But that they themselves did not account it —not that God excuses it, since he had not given them a formal law.

    I would have said they are innocent of the Mosaic law, and indeed, not bound by it, but they are not innocent of what Christ called the summation of the law: To love the Lord our God with all of our being, and to love our neighbor as ourselves. To my thinking, they need not have considered that as formal law for them to know it by conscience, and to neglect both (as per Romans 1), not having the Spirit of God in regeneration to change their will.

    Anyhow, I welcome your teaching on the matter. I have a lot to learn on several fronts.
     
  2. HIM

    HIM Friend CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    No. Jesus lived by faith. He was the word manifested in the flesh. He established, He lived out that which was in the law. He could not help Himself because that is who he is.
    The promise of the New Covenant which is first stated in Deuteronomy 29:1, 30:10-14 in the present tense and then later in Jeremiah 31:31 as something In the future. Gives us this same attribute through Him.
    So us being enabled by God with this same enabling of having the word, the law manifested in our flesh. Having the word, the law in our hearts, it being the essence of who we are establishes, exhibits, manifests the law in it’s entirety as it did in Jesus. We as He through Him are to be the Word manifested in the flesh. Because the Law, the very Word through His Spirit is now a major part of who we are. It being in our heart and minds, the driving force of who we are as Christians. Faith comes from the heart and if our heart is of the Word, the Law then it is what we are hearing. Hence Faith cometh from hearing, hearing by the word of God from within our heart. So say not in our hearts bring Christ from above or up from the deep. But say, the Word is nigh, in our hearts and in our mouths that we may do it. That is the word of Faith in which we preach. For the Lord our God has circumcised our hearts with the circumcision of Christ. Amen.

    Deuteronomy 29:1 These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.
    Deuteronomy 30:10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
    Deuteronomy 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
    Deuteronomy 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
    Deuteronomy 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
    Deuteronomy 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
    Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
    Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
    Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ into all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
    Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
    Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
    Romans 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above)
    Romans 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
    Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
    Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
     
  3. HIM

    HIM Friend CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    Hey there Mark. There was never any real ignorance on our part.

    Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
    Romans 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
    Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:


    Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
    Romans 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.


    Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
     
  4. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    You may want to look at Genesis which does not agree with your friends post. As Gods' 10 commandments before the written Word of God was given at Mt Sinai was already knows through the spoken Words of God according to the scriptures. The study below is from a friend that use to be here which I thought might be useful.

    GOD'S TEN COMMANDMENTS KNOWN FROM THE BEGINNING

    FIRST TABLE: (First four commandments duty towards God; Exodus 20:3-11)

    [1] For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. [Genesis 3:5] And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed [is] the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat [of] it all the days of thy life; [Genesis 3:17] And I bowed down my head, and worshipped the LORD, and blessed the LORD God of my master Abraham, which had led me in the right way to take my master's brother's daughter unto his son. [Genesis 24:48] Then Jacob said unto his household, and to all that [were] with him, Put away the strange gods that [are] among you, and be clean, and change your garments: [Genesis 35:2] And let us arise, and go up to Bethel; and I will make there an altar unto God, who answered me in the day of my distress, and was with me in the way which I went. [Genesis 35:3] And they gave unto Jacob all the strange gods which [were] in their hand, and [all their] earrings which [were] in their ears; and Jacob hid them under the oak which [was] by Shechem. [Genesis 35:4]

    [2] Then Jacob said unto his household, and to all that [were] with him, Put away the strange gods that [are] among you, and be clean, and change your garments: [Genesis 35:2] And they gave unto Jacob all the strange gods which [were] in their hand, and [all their] earrings which [were] in their ears; and Jacob hid them under the oak which [was] by Shechem. [Genesis 35:4]

    [3] For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. [Genesis 3:6] And he said, Blessed [be] the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant. [Genesis 9:26] And he said, Blessed [be] the LORD God of my master Abraham, who hath not left destitute my master of his mercy and his truth: I [being] in the way, the LORD led me to the house of my master's brethren. [Genesis 24:27] And it was so, when the days of [their] feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings [according] to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually. [Job 1:5] Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die. [Job 2:9] But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips. [Job 2:10] And Pharaoh said, Who [is] the LORD, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go. [Exodus 5:2]

    [4] And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. [Genesis 2:2] And God blessed the seventh day [now mentioned 3 times], and sanctified it [Qadash, meaning: to consecrate or set aside for holy use or purpose, the "Sabbath was made for man"; see Mark 2:27]: because that in it he had rested from all his work [GOD is the Example; see Hebrews 4:10] which God created and made. [Genesis 2:3] Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. [Genesis 26:5] And the king of Egypt said unto them, Wherefore do ye, Moses and Aaron, let the people from their works? get you unto your burdens. [Exodus 5:4] And Pharaoh said, Behold, the people of the land now [are] many, and ye make them rest [Shabath, same word used in Genesis 2:2-3, meaning: to cease, or keep Sabbath] from their burdens. [Exodus 5:5] And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I [am] the LORD that healeth thee. [Exodus 15:26] Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no. [Exodus 16:4] [GOD already has a LAW, and it is not called the “Hebrews Law”, but GOD calls it “MY LAW”] And he said unto them, This [is that] which the LORD hath said, To morrow [is] the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake [that] which ye will bake [to day], and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning. [Exodus 16:23] And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day [is] a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field. [Exodus 16:25] Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, [which is] the sabbath [this does not say that the 7th day now becomes the Sabbath, but it says that the 7th day is the Sabbath already, as it always had been], in it there shall be none. [Exodus 16:26] And it came to pass, [that] there went out [some] of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none. [Exodus 16:27] And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws? [Exodus 16:28] See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day. [Exodus 16:29] So the people rested on the seventh day. [Exodus 16:30] [Exodus 16 takes place 2 weeks before Mt. Sinai] And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: [Mark 2:27] And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; [2 Peter 2:5] [All of God's commandments are righteousness, see Psalms 119:172; see also that Noah preached against those who continually bought and sold, planted and builded upon God's holy day; Matthew 24:37-39; Luke 17:26-30]

    First table completed and to the second table to be continued in the next post...
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2022
  5. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    SECOND TABLE: (Second six commandments; duty toward our neighbor - Exodus 20:11-17)

    [5] And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: [Genesis 2:16] But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. [Genesis 2:17] And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without. [Genesis 9:22] And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid [it] upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces [were] backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness. [Genesis 9:23] And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him. [Genesis 9:24] Now therefore, my son, obey my voice according to that which I command thee. [Genesis 27:8] And his mother said unto him, Upon me [be] thy curse, my son: only obey my voice, and go fetch me [them]. [Genesis 27:13] Now therefore, my son, obey my voice; and arise, flee thou to Laban my brother to Haran; [Genesis 27:43] Gather yourselves together, and hear, ye sons of Jacob; and hearken unto Israel your father. [Genesis 49:2]

    [6] But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. [Genesis 2:17] Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? [Genesis 3:1] And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: [Genesis 3:4] And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. [Genesis 3:6] In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return. [Genesis 3:19] But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. [Genesis 4:5] And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? [Genesis 4:6] If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. [Genesis 4:7] And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him. [Genesis 4:8] And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. [Genesis 4:10] O my soul, come not thou into their secret; unto their assembly, mine honour, be not thou united: for in their anger they slew a man, and in their selfwill they digged down a wall. [Genesis 49:6]

    [7] Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. [Genesis 2:24] The princes also of Pharaoh saw her, and commended her before Pharaoh: and the woman was taken into Pharaoh's house. [Genesis 12:15] And the LORD plagued Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of Sarai Abram's wife. [Genesis 12:17] And Pharaoh called Abram, and said, What [is] this [that] thou hast done unto me? why didst thou not tell me that she [was] thy wife? [Genesis 12:18] Why saidst thou, She [is] my sister? so I might have taken her to me to wife: now therefore behold thy wife, take [her], and go thy way. [Genesis 12:19] And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; [Genesis 18:20] But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou [art but] a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she [is] a man's wife. [Genesis 20:3] But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, Lord, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation? [Genesis 20:4] Said he not unto me, She [is] my sister? and she, even she herself said, He [is] my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocency of my hands have I done this. [Genesis 20:5] And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her. [Genesis 20:6] Now therefore restore the man [his] wife; for he [is] a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore [her] not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that [are] thine. [Genesis 20:7] Then Abimelech called Abraham, and said unto him, What hast thou done unto us? and what have I offended thee, that thou hast brought on me and on my kingdom a great sin? thou hast done deeds unto me that ought not to be done. [Genesis 20:9] For the LORD had fast closed up all the wombs of the house of Abimelech, because of Sarah Abraham's wife. [Genesis 20:18] [There is] none greater in this house than I; neither hath he kept back any thing from me but thee, because thou [art] his wife: how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God? [Genesis 39:9] And it came to pass, as she spake to Joseph day by day, that he hearkened not unto her, to lie by her, [or] to be with her. [Genesis 39:10] Unstable as water, thou shalt not excel; because thou wentest up to thy father's bed; then defiledst thou [it]: he went up to my couch. [Genesis 49:4]

    [8] And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. [Genesis 3:6] And Laban went to shear his sheep: and Rachel had stolen the images that [were] her father's. [Genesis 31:19] And now, [though] thou wouldest needs be gone, because thou sore longedst after thy father's house, [yet] wherefore hast thou stolen my gods? [Genesis 31:30] With whomsoever thou findest thy gods, let him not live: before our brethren discern thou what [is] thine with me, and take [it] to thee. For Jacob knew not that Rachel had stolen them. [Genesis 31:32] Now Rachel had taken the images, and put them in the camel's furniture, and sat upon them. And Laban searched all the tent, but found [them] not. [Genesis 31:34] And Jacob was wroth, and chode with Laban: and Jacob answered and said to Laban, What [is] my trespass? what [is] my sin, that thou hast so hotly pursued after me? [Genesis 31:36] Whereas thou hast searched all my stuff, what hast thou found of all thy household stuff? set [it] here before my brethren and thy brethren, that they may judge betwixt us both. [Genesis 31:37] [And] when they were gone out of the city, [and] not [yet] far off, Joseph said unto his steward, Up, follow after the men; and when thou dost overtake them, say unto them, Wherefore have ye rewarded evil for good? [Genesis 44:4] [Is] not this [it] in which my lord drinketh, and whereby indeed he divineth? ye have done evil in so doing. [Genesis 44:5] And they said unto him, Wherefore saith my lord these words? God forbid that thy servants should do according to this thing: [Genesis 44:7] Behold, the money, which we found in our sacks' mouths, we brought again unto thee out of the land of Canaan: how then should we steal out of thy lord's house silver or gold? [Genesis 44:8] With whomsoever of thy servants it be found, both let him die, and we also will be my lord's bondmen. [Genesis 44:9]

    [9] Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? [Genesis 3:1] And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: [Genesis 3:4] And the LORD said unto Cain, Where [is] Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: [Am] I my brother's keeper? [Genesis 4:9] My father peradventure will feel me, and I shall seem to him as a deceiver; and I shall bring a curse upon me, and not a blessing. [Genesis 27:12] And Jacob said unto his father, I [am] Esau thy firstborn; I have done according as thou badest me: arise, I pray thee, sit and eat of my venison, that thy soul may bless me. [Genesis 27:19] And he said, [Art] thou my very son Esau? And he said, I [am]. [Genesis 27:24] And Esau hated Jacob because of the blessing wherewith his father blessed him: and Esau said in his heart, The days of mourning for my father are at hand; then will I slay my brother Jacob. [Genesis 27:31]

    [10] And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. [Genesis 3:6] And Abraham said, Because I thought, Surely the fear of God [is] not in this place; and they will slay me for my wife's sake. [Genesis 20:11] And his brethren envied him; but his father observed the saying. [Genesis 37:11] Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place [such] over them, [to be] rulers of thousands, [and] rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens: [Exodus 18:21] Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; [Hebrews 11:25]

    ..................

    All of God's law was known before the written Word was given at Mt Sinai according to the scriptures.
    • Genesis 26:5 [5], Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
    The Hebrew word for laws is torah which includes Gods laws that give us a knowledge of what sin is as well as God's old covenant laws for remission of sin through animal sacrifices and sin offerings which can also be shown through Genesis which would take a complete new post. All the above scripture are in disagreement with your friends post why you were responding to.

    Take Care.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2022
  6. expos4ever

    expos4ever Well-Known Member

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    Entirely irrelevant to my clear argument that the "but now" in verse 21 leaves verse 20 in the past.

    True, but how does this mean in Romans 3 that the "but now" in verse 21 does not means that verse 20 is in the past?

    Again, entirely irrelevant. There is nothing in this long section that clearly explains why Paul would tell us in verse 20 that law gives knowledge of sin, then write "but now.....", and not intend us to understand that verse 20 is in the past.

    What is before "now"? You guessed, something in the past.

    You are avoiding the challenge posed in my argument.

    How does merely posting scripture answer the challenge I have posed?
     
  7. expos4ever

    expos4ever Well-Known Member

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    Sure, the Law was "known", but that does not mean it was in force.

    Paul is very clear - there was a time when there was no law in force:

    for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not counted against anyone when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, .....

    There is no escape: the logic of this statement from Paul cannot be misunderstood unless you change his wording: they are was a time when the Law was not "in world". Period.

    Why does Paul use the "nevertheless"? Obviously, he has to explain how there could be death in the absence of the Law of Moses.
     
  8. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I understand that, and I doubt that @Clare73 disputes that. I'm trying to understand specifically what she means by saying that those between Adam and Moses did not sin. I'm hoping she only means, 'sin as in failure to observe the law', (since the law had not yet been written), and not 'sin as in opposition to or enmity with God'.

    Romans 12:3 however, does not refer to the natural man, but to the regenerated.
     
  9. Leaf473

    Leaf473 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think Abraham knew all of the laws that would be delivered through Moses. If so, he would have known this passage. That would seem to me very strange, Abraham knowing this:

    Deuteronomy 23:3 An Ammonite or a Moabite shall not enter into the Lord's assembly; even to the tenth generation shall no one belonging to them enter into the Lord's assembly forever, because they didn’t meet you with bread and with water on the way when you came out of Egypt, and because they hired against you Balaam the son of Beor from Pethor of Mesopotamia, to curse you.
     
  10. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Naw. . .I wouldn't dash your hope like that!
    Let me see if I can clarify (or obfuscate), whichever it turns out to be.

    There are two phrases Paul uses interchangeably (which may be the nomenclature problem):
    1) "where there is no law, there is no transgression/sin" (Romans 4:15),
    2) sin was in the world (of "no transgression/sin"), but sin is not taken into account when there is no law (Romans 5:14).
    Sin was in the world (Romans 5:13), ergo, earthly judgments ensued.
    But there was no curse of the Law in force.
    The only (accountable) sin in the world (due to violation of a direct law of God) was Adam's sin, for which physical death was a penalty.
    Salvation was by belief in the promise of Genesis 3:15.

    It is Paul who (tortuously) parses it this way in Romans 5:12-14, making a distinction between
    1) accountable sin by specific law-breaking, and its penalty of physical death, and
    2) sin not accountable because there was no law and, therefore, no penalty of physical death,
    (on his way to demonstrating what guilt caused the physical death of all between Adam and Moses when there was no law in force, whose sentence was physical death for its violation, as there was in the Garden)

    in his contrast of the first Adam with the second Adam (Romans 5:15-17), culminating in the contrasting parallels between them of Romans 5:18-19, where
    Adam's guilt is imputed by birth to all those born of (the first) Adam (Romans 5:18), and
    Christ's righteousness is imputed by faith (Romans 1:17, Romans 3:21-22) to all those born of (the second Adam) Christ,
    just as it was imputed to Abraham by faith (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3).

    And if he hadn't been caught up to the third heaven (2 Corinthians 12:1-8) and had not received his gospel from Jesus Christ personally (Galatians 1:11-12), I would have my concerns about his parsing here. But when you sort it out, it is a logical teaching, in agreement with Scripture (Genesis 15:6, and the foil of Romans 9:23), explaining the imputation of Adam's guilt and condemnation to those between Adam and Moses which caused their physical deaths, as well as imputation of them to all those born of Adam (Romans 5:18). . .as the foil for imputation of Christ's righteousness by faith to all those born of Christ.
    Made me appreciate Peter's comment in 2 Peter 3:16.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2022
  11. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    It's not about being offensive to God. It's about justice.
    Paul's point is a legal point regarding law. . ."where there is no law, there can be no transgression of law."
    That is completely in accord with the justice of God.

    I'm thinkin' you might want to rethink that. . .

    Romans 1-3 is about the unrighteousness of all mankind, Gentile and Jew alike; and all righteousness is only from God.
    Romans 4 is about demonstrating that righteousness has always been by faith, and never by law as the Jews erroneously taught.
    Romans 5 is about the fruits of righteousness, peace and joy.
    It's simply about no law with the penalty of physical death had been given to those between Adam and Moses and, therefore, in justice they were not accountable and would not have died physically for their behavior. . .but they did die. So what guilt caused their death? Adam's guilt imputed to them.
    You are very gracious.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2022
  12. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    GOD'S 10 COMMANDMENTS WHERE IN FORCE BEFORE MT SINAI AND MANKIND KNEW WHAT SIN WAS.

    Not only were God's 10 commandments already known as shown from the scriptures in Genesis (See post # 364 linked and post # 365 linked.) They were absolutely in force! This is why they practiced animal sacrifices and sin offering to seek atonement and God's forgiveness for sin as shown in Genesis 4:3-4; Genesis 8:20; Genesis 22:8; 13. You might want to also consider that God destroyed the earth with a flood because of the wickedness of mankind and that the thoughts of his heart were only evil continually which Jesus compares to breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments in Matthew 15:18-20 (see Genesis 6:5-7; compare Matthew 15:18-20). You may also want to consider that God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah with fire because of sin as it is written in Genesis 18:20 "And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous." God did not destroy mankind when they did not know what sin was (see James 4:17; Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31).

    Take Care.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2022
  13. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I could be wrong, but I'm thinking @Clare73 is already well aware of the references and point you are trying to make. I'm asking her what I do, because I'm pretty sure she doesn't mean that nobody actually committed sin before Sinai, but I'm not sure just what she is saying, other than that sin is not accounted where there is no law. I'm thinking she was referring to Mosaic law, not that it wasn't sin to disobey God at any point before that. But I will let her answer.
     
  14. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I love reading your posts. I have to chew on it!

    It's late, and I'll have to reread it when I can give it more attention. I still have 11 more alerts to check before I go to bed. Go with God!
     
  15. Icyspark

    Icyspark Member

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    Hi expos4ever,

    If we are to make sense of the above text then we need to be careful in how we read it. A biblical definition for sin is "transgression of the law." The above text appears to correlate with this definition in acknowledging that "sin is not counted against anyone when there is no law." Paul says he would not have known what sin was if the law didn't say, "Do not covet."

    With that in mind let's refer to the first part of the Romans 5:13 text: "until the law sin was in the world..." You can't say sin was in the world if there was nothing which identified what was God's will (i.e. His law). The book of Genesis is primarily a book of origins, not of commands, however that doesn't mean that we can't discover that the people before the law was codified at Sinai had no knowledge of God's law.



    Again, I'd say Paul was referring to a time before the law was codified in written form.

    A few questions for you:
    1. Is the God of the Bible arbitrary? Iow, does God punish people for things they knew nothing about?
    2. Did Cain know it was wrong to murder his brother?
    3. Did those living before the flood know what it meant to be wicked and evil (Genesis 6:5), or corrupt (Genesis 6:11)
    4. Did those living before the flood know what it meant to be righteous and blameless (Genesis 6:9)
    5. On what basis would you say the classifications in questions 3 and 4 were determined? (consider also question 1 above)

    I pray this helps.

    But for the grace of God go I,cyspark
     
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  16. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    So Paul got it wrong?
    Paul is referring to the time before the law was given as specific commands with a death penalty attached for not observing them perfectly.
    Were there specific commands from God with the death penalty specifically attached at that time?
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2022
  17. expos4ever

    expos4ever Well-Known Member

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    But Paul says this:

    for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not counted against anyone when there is no law.

    This is unambiguous - Paul is saying that sin was in the world even before the Law of Moses was given.

    I do not see how it is possible to reconcile what Paul says in Romans 5 with the view that "sin = lawlessness in the 10 commandment sense".
     
  18. expos4ever

    expos4ever Well-Known Member

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    It seems to me that some posters are attempting to rescue the proposition that "sin = lawlessness with respect to the 10 commandments" against the threat posed by Romans 5 where Paul says sin existed before the Law.

    It is, I suggest, not a coincidence that LoveGodsWord has repeatedly refused to answer this question:

    Did people sin before the Law of Moses was given?

    In any event, I think that effort is doomed to fail.

    Think about what is going on here. When faced with a text that suggests that sin cannot possibly only be reckoned against the 10 commandments since they were not even given till Sinai, you appear to be forced to hypothesize that Paul has effectively overlooked something you guys have not: that the law "existed" from the very beginning, it was just not set down in written form.

    In other words, you are saying Paul has got it wrong with his Romans 5 analysis.

    Think about it - if Paul believes that humanity had a kind of magical access to this yet-to-be-written set of commandments from the time of Adam, why would he even need to make an argument about what happened between Adam and Moses in the first place? There would be nothing that needed to be explained.

    But, as Clare73 has pointed out, he has to argue that people before the Law were reckoned as sinners by imputation of Adam's sin. And Adam did not sin against the 10 commandments!

    Besides, we know from other Biblical texts that sin cannot mean lawlessness with respect to 10 and only that:

    For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
     
  19. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Q.E.D.
     
  20. Icyspark

    Icyspark Member

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    Hi Clare73,

    :innocent: You might want to reread my comments. I've placed them above for your convenience.



    Again, you might want to reread my questions (also included above) because if you were to answer them I'd think you'd answer your own question.

    Not to be snarky, but I'd think if you were biblically informed that a question about a death penalty being "attached at that time" would seem unnecessary. That said, the issue of the flood looms large in my mind. Unless you wish to believe that God arbitrarily drowned all but 8 of the antediluvian world then one would have to conclude that a death penalty was imposed and that the people knew the difference between what it meant to be righteous and blameless and what it meant to be wicked, evil and corrupt. Words have meaning. They don't just pop up into the narrative undefined.

    Then too, what about Sodom and Gomorrah? Only three people were spared from the destruction of these cities. Is that not also an example of a death penalty imposed?

    I pray this helps.

    But for the grace of God go I,cyspark
     
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