If the Earth looked less than 10,000 years old

[AV1611VET]

If you had the authority to make that call,

What call?

... I would march in proudly myself.

You don't know the Parable of the Prodical Son, do you?

It teaches two truths:

1. Man cannot do anything to lose his salvation (the prodical).
2. Man cannot do anything to earn his salvation (the prodical's brother).

It's all about Jesus Christ.

 

[TLK Valentine]

What call?

The one you made.

You don't know the Parable of the Prodical Son, do you?

I know it's one of those stories you claim Jesus personally witnessed -- did he see this one before or after the one about the Prodigal Son?

 

[AV1611VET]

I know it's one of those stories you claim Jesus personally witnessed -- did he see this one before or after the one about the Prodigal Son?

Thanks for the correction!

 

[Dave-W]

He would have needed to miraculously and instantly modify the metabolisms of all living things.

Yeah - so?

 

[lesliedellow]

Yeah - so?

Yeah so. There is no reason whatsoever to suppose that it happened, aside from your unique reading of Romans.

 

[Queller]

You are thinking of things ONLY in the natural.

The fall was spiritual, and the quoted portion of Romans 8 says that that spiritual transaction had effects into the natural. Those scars may be a side effect of the fall.

That's a new one. How did Adam and Eve eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil cause meteor craters?

 

[Queller]

You are using the present tense "operates." But that says nothing about how it used to operate (past tense) prior to the fall.

And I would submit that would be true ONLY IF you assume the laws of physics remain the same. I propose the possibility that they did NOT remain the same.

OK. Present your scientific evidence for that claim.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Yeah - so?

So why not just say "A Wizard did it," and be done with it?

 

[quatona]

Yeah - so?

Uhmm, that would - among other things - mean that the "corruption" was not a consequence of "the fall", but God´s intentional and arbitrary decision and making.

 

[quatona]

How would it change the laws of physics?

Probably the same answer to both questions.

Namely?

 

[lesliedellow]

That's a new one. How did Adam and Eve eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil cause meteor craters?

Oh come now. Surely you can see that makes perfect sense in a creationist's science. Up is down, down is up and black is white.

 

[Dave-W]

Uhmm, that would - among other things - mean that the "corruption" was not a consequence of "the fall", but God´s intentional and arbitrary decision and making.

The passage in Romans 8 refers to "Him who subjected it;" meaning that God changed everything as a result (consequence) of Adam's sin.

 

[Dave-W]

OK. Present your scientific evidence for that claim.

If you can show me lab results from how things worked before the fall, I can do that. Otherwise ...

 

[lesliedellow]

If you can show me lab results from how things worked before the fall, I can do that. Otherwise ...

He said YOUR scientific evidence. If you claim the laws of nature were different in the past, it is up to you to justify that quite extraordinary claim. It is not up to anybody else to help you do so - especially when they are saying that your claim is nonsense.

Eve sinks her teeth into a forbidden fruit, on some insignificant speck of dust she inhabits, orbiting a star on the edge of the Milky Way galaxy, and all of a sudden the entire universe starts obeying a completely different set of physical laws. Yeah sure. Whatever you say.

There has to be some limit to the fantasy land creationists inhabit, doesn't there?

 

[Dave-W]

He said YOUR scientific evidence. If you claim the laws of nature were different in the past, it is up to you to justify that quite extraordinary claim. It is not up to anybody else to help you do so - especially when they are saying that your claim is nonsense.

I have only scripture to go on.

And that is enough.

 

[lesliedellow]

I have only scripture to go on.

And that is enough.

In that case perhaps you should stop trying to make it say something it doesn't say, and buy yourself a commentary on Romans, written by an exegete who doesn't live in fantasy land.

 

[Dave-W]

and buy yourself a commentary on Romans, written by an exegete who doesn't live in fantasy land.

I will not listen to anyone's scriptural analysis that does not rely heavily on the ongoing supernatural intervention of God into our material world. If you want to call that "fantasy land," you can take that up with HIM.

 

[lesliedellow]

I will not listen to anyone's scriptural analysis that does not rely heavily on the ongoing supernatural intervention of God into our material world. If you want to call that "fantasy land," you can take that up with HIM.

So don't tell me. James Montgomery Boice, Derek Kidner, John Calvin, Meredith Kline, they are all liberals who are not to be trusted, are they?

 

[Dave-W]

The only one of that list I am familiar with is Calvin, and being brought up Wesleyan, I have my doubts about him on several fronts.

 

[lesliedellow]

I will not listen to anyone's scriptural analysis that does not rely heavily on the ongoing supernatural intervention of God into our material world. If you want to call that "fantasy land," you can take that up with HIM.

I am sure you could find a commentary written by a conservative Methodist, unless you prefer your own unguided fantasies, of course.