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If the Bible is true science MUST get the age wrong.

Apos

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I have no problem with any dating method as long as we realize that the world was not the same back then and there was no decay universally.

Ok: if this were the case, then there would be a lot of evidence that this was so: what is that evidence?

You do realize, of course, that it isn't always strictly just decay rates that then simply determine dates, right? If what you claim is true: that substances didn't, for some inexplicable extra-Biblical reason, decay, then this rather bizarre occurance would show up in isochron analysis. But no such discrepancy appears.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/isochron-dating.html

No long ages of decaying ever happened, or can be evidenced, in other words.

Take the seafloor. In the Atlantic, it currently spreads at a fairly slow rate, new material welling up from below to fill in the space left by plates that are heading away from each other. The speed at which this sort of process happens produces a very characteristic sort of rock: if it goes faster, we can tell, if it goes slower, we can tell: all without any "decay."

Now, we also know that the continents of Africa and South America were once joined: the evidence is, again, overwhleming. These two contients were once joined, and have been traveling away from each other. The nature of the seafloor spreading and the characteristic evidence of this process left behind show that they traveled at a fairly constant rate.

Now, your explanation is no doubt that this process took only a few thousand years. The date we get from extrapolating the seafloor spreading process is well over a hundred thousand years. And this date isn't just confirmable from what we know of rock formation. We can, as an independent check, radioactively date the rocks. You may not believe these dates, of course, but the dates fom these rocks line up perfectly with the dates we can get from the seafloor calculation. And on top of that, we can also use the magnetic reversal data in these rocks: which matches up with strata from everywhere else in the world, to for a third time, in a third line of evidence, date the events of rock formation, not unlike a barcode. You may well think all of these methods are in error. Unfortunately, because there are so many different methods of dating, your claim that they are all in error also must come up against the problem of why they would all give the SAME wrong answers, in such great cross-confirming detail.

More importantly, for your explanation of this discrepancy to make sense, the plates would have had to travel at an enormously fast rate: (something that right off the bat is implausible because the amount of energy necessary to move entire continents at that speed would shatter them and leave all sorts of tell-tale signs).

There is no evidence that they did so: had they, we'd be able to tell from the way that the rock had formed in the seafloor.

So, where is the evidence for your alternate theory? Let's not forget, now, that your explanations are undoubtedly not themselves Biblical. Simply to try and reconcile your particular sects' very particular interpretation of the Bible, you will be making up out of whole cloth an alternate theory (including any number of new physical laws, themselves with no evidence) that has no grounding in the Bible. For the moment, we'll ignore that. All we'll ask is that your claims be consistent. If you claim that radioactive decay simply didn't happen for a time, then you should be prepared to present evidence. If you claim that the plates just really did, against all other evidence to the contrary, DID move at a ridiculously fast rate over the past 4000 years or whatever, then you must explain why the radioactive dates of the rock are different in the particular pattern we find them (i.e., as we move from the coast of Africa towards South America, the dates get younger and younger, and by the time we reach the trench where the plates split, the date is in the modern era, and as we cross the trench continuing to South America, the dates get older again until they reach roughly the same date right at the coast of South America). If the plates really did move that fast, then radioactive decay must not have simply "started up" at smoe point as you claim: it must have been a radically higher rate of decay than we've ever seen any evidence for anywhere in the universe: a rate so high that it would have torn through the earth and any life on it like a shotgun blast, irradiating and killing most life in the seas. Where is the evidence that that happened? Or, alternatively, what other explanation do you have for us?
 
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dad

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Frumious Bandersnatch said:
Maybe with a diamond in the center.;)

F.B.
One of the materials I speculated about, regarding if the center of the earth was not hot. I have a few other ideas that are perhaps more interesting on that now.
 
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dad

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Apos said:
Ok: if this were the case, then there would be a lot of evidence that this was so: what is that evidence?

You do realize, of course, that it isn't always strictly just decay rates that then simply determine dates, right? If what you claim is true: that substances didn't, for some inexplicable extra-Biblical reason, decay, then this rather bizarre occurance would show up in isochron analysis. But no such discrepancy appears.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/isochron-dating.html
No, it should not.


Take the seafloor. In the Atlantic, it currently spreads at a fairly slow rate, new material welling up from below to fill in the space left by plates that are heading away from each other. The speed at which this sort of process happens produces a very characteristic sort of rock: if it goes faster, we can tell, if it goes slower, we can tell: all without any "decay."
We can tell how it moves, and reacts at the present, of course, what about it?

Now, we also know that the continents of Africa and South America were once joined: the evidence is, again, overwhleming. These two contients were once joined, and have been traveling away from each other. The nature of the seafloor spreading and the characteristic evidence of this process left behind show that they traveled at a fairly constant rate.
Only if this seperation occured in the present.

Now, your explanation is no doubt that this process took only a few thousand years.
No, very little time.

The date we get from extrapolating the seafloor spreading process is well over a hundred thousand years. And this date isn't just confirmable from what we know of rock formation. We can, as an independent check, radioactively date the rocks.
Present process extrapolated backwards, what else is new?

You may not believe these dates, of course, but the dates fom these rocks line up perfectly with the dates we can get from the seafloor calculation.
All calculations are PO, so I would sure hope they somewhat jive with each other. There are only old ages in PO philosophy, why would it surprise anyone thats all they come up with!?

And on top of that, we can also use the magnetic reversal data in these rocks: which matches up with strata from everywhere else in the world, to for a third time, in a third line of evidence, date the events of rock formation, not unlike a barcode.
Same story. PO speculation valid only as far as the PO.

You may well think all of these methods are in error. Unfortunately, because there are so many different methods of dating, your claim that they are all in error also must come up against the problem of why they would all give the SAME wrong answers, in such great cross-confirming detail.
I just did, they are assume a PO past.

More importantly, for your explanation of this discrepancy to make sense, the plates would have had to travel at an enormously fast rate: (something that right off the bat is implausible because the amount of energy necessary to move entire continents at that speed would shatter them and leave all sorts of tell-tale signs).
Yes it would, now, in the PO present, of course, but this is irrelevant. Are you staring to get this point yet?

There is no evidence that they did so: had they, we'd be able to tell from the way that the rock had formed in the seafloor.
No you wouldn't, you would do as you do, assume a past PO, and old age process!

So, where is the evidence for your alternate theory? Let's not forget, now, that your explanations are undoubtedly not themselves Biblical.
Yes, you will need to forget that latest bit you made up, or put up some form of feeble arguement, to be blasted out of the water at least.

Simply to try and reconcile your particular sects' very particular interpretation of the Bible,
I must confess, I can blame the split merge on no one.

you will be making up out of whole cloth an alternate theory (including any number of new physical laws, themselves with no evidence) that has no grounding in the Bible.
You like to hear yourself speak? You are beating the air here.

For the moment, we'll ignore that. All we'll ask is that your claims be consistent. If you claim that radioactive decay simply didn't happen for a time, then you should be prepared to present evidence.
No science says it did or did not.

If you claim that the plates just really did, against all other evidence to the contrary, DID move at a ridiculously fast rate over the past 4000 years or whatever, then you must explain why the radioactive dates of the rock are different in the particular pattern we find them
All dates are pretty meaningless as to real time, pretty simple. What you mean is the relation of material in the rocks to each other currently in a state of decay. I could come up with ideas as you could for this, but since time is not much related, it doesn't really matter.

(i.e., as we move from the coast of Africa towards South America, the dates get younger and younger, and by the time we reach the trench where the plates split, the date is in the modern era,
So if the journey started at the trench, we simply see a pattern of more or less daughter materials as it moved out further each direction. There are many possible reasons on the split merge side for this.

and as we cross the trench continuing to South America, the dates get older again until they reach roughly the same date right at the coast of South America). If the plates really did move that fast, then radioactive decay must not have simply "started up" at smoe point as you claim: it must have been a radically higher rate of decay than we've ever seen any evidence for anywhere in the universe:
It didn't give us the daughter material, if thats where you are going here, that was here already, I think. Of course if we imagine all that as a result of decay happening fast, it is ridiculous.
 
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Frumious Bandersnatch

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In addition to fitting with radioactive discussed by Apos, the amount and nature and amount of the sea floor sediments and the bathymetric profile of the sea floor. Neither of these things fits with fast moving continents. The amount of sediments on the sea floor would have required enormous erosion from the continents during dad's mythical super fast split which apparently was supposed to have occured during the "Time of Peleg". The fact that the continents exposure new sea floor and lithosphere as they move would also mean that dad's rapidly moving continents would have boiled the oceans and left heat that not only would have cooked the earth to death but would have led to a much different earth than we see today. One one side we have a theory which explains many features of the earth and on the other dad's bizarre fantasies that explain nothing and constantly morph to fit dad's ad hoc irrationalization of the day. Which would you chose?

F.B.
 
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dad

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Frumious Bandersnatch said:
In addition to fitting with radioactive discussed by Apos, the amount and nature and amount of the sea floor sediments
I looked at your webspinner page, what exactly is your point? What aspect of the ocean floor say, beween the US and Africa is it you think supports you?

and the bathymetric profile of the sea floor. Neither of these things fits with fast moving continents. The amount of sediments on the sea floor would have required enormous erosion from the continents during dad's mythical super fast split
In the present, not the past.

which apparently was supposed to have occured during the "Time of Peleg". The fact that the continents exposure new sea floor and lithosphere as they move would also mean
That a review of where the heat we do have really came from happen.

that dad's rapidly moving continents would have boiled the oceans and left heat that not only would have cooked the earth to death but would have led to a much different earth than we see today.
..If the past indeed was PO, which we can see was not, because that did not happen! The evidence mounts.
Isn't it high time you stopped thumping your imaginary past?
 
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Frumious Bandersnatch

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dad said:
I looked at your webspinner page, what exactly is your point? What aspect of the ocean floor say, beween the US and Africa is it you think supports you?


In the present, not the past.


That a review of where the heat we do have really came from happen.


..If the past indeed was PO, which we can see was not, because that did not happen! The evidence mounts.
It didn't happen because tens of millions of years are plenty of time to dissipate the heat. What didn't happen is your myth. The evidence mounts that you are seriously delusional.

F.B.
 
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dad

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Frumious Bandersnatch said:
dad said:
It didn't happen because tens of millions of years are plenty of time to dissipate the heat. What didn't happen is your myth. ...
F.B.
It didn't happen because it was not a physical only world at the time.
The evidence mounts that you are seriously delusional.
 
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Frumious Bandersnatch

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dad said:
Frumious Bandersnatch said:
It didn't happen because it was not a physical only world at the time.
The evidence mounts that you are seriously delusional.
What evidence? You have never presented anything even remotely resembling evidence.

F.B.
 
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dad

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Frumious Bandersnatch said:
dad said:
What evidence? You have never presented anything even remotely resembling evidence.

F.B.
I simply cut and pasted your own words there, in case you missed that, as they apply more to you. Speaking of evidence, you have failed to support the PO past that your all hinges on! You have never presented anything even remotely resembling evidence.
 
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Frumious Bandersnatch

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dad said:
Frumious Bandersnatch said:
I simply cut and pasted your own words there, in case you missed that, as they apply more to you. Speaking of evidence, you have failed to support the PO past that your all hinges on! You have never presented anything even remotely resembling evidence.

What a joke you are. You have got to be trying to set a new record for wacky creationists. Sorry but I doubt if even you can surpass dancing Greenland.

F.B.
 
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dad

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Frumious Bandersnatch said:
What a joke you are. ....
F.B.
It's no joke, we had a very different world, despite your baseless, unsupportable claims to the contrary. Your whole case consists of how it now works, and how you think it might have, coulda woulda shoulda worked, if all was the same then! That's it! The beginning and end of your Godless madness. You are in no position to call names, and hurl firebrands, or insults! You are a willing slave of the box, bound by the box, and nothing but the box.
You sit in the box hurling insults at true creation, and the flood, and those that are free of your prison, and web you would like to catch them in.
You are an intellectual eunuch, and work with less than half the facts, which provide answers that are a joke.
 
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Frumious Bandersnatch

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Opethian said:
No, I think he just has barely enough intelligence for motoric skills, such as typing, and none left over for rationality.
I keep waiting for him to tell us that it is all big joke and that he has been pulling everyone's chains by pretending to be WWYEC (World's Wackiest Young Earth Creationist). Though he has been trying hard he still has a way to go since we have seen dancing Greenland and the Crystalline Hydrogen Firmament on this board already.
 
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Opethian

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I keep waiting for him to tell us that it is all big joke and that he has been pulling everyone's chains by pretending to be WWYEC (World's Wackiest Young Earth Creationist). Though he has been trying hard he still has a way to go since we have seen dancing Greenland and the Crystalline Hydrogen Firmament on this board already.

Too bad I wasn't here to experience those, I was thinking of starting a book with "dumbest creationist quotes". At first I estimated I should be able to get it finished in a couple of years, but the way this is going, I could have it in print by next week!
 
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dad

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Frumious Bandersnatch said:
Dad must be troll trying to make YEC look bad and doing a great job. It seeme to me that no one capable of using a computer could be as irrational as dad seems to be, could they?


F.B.
Irational is not another belief than yours, it is falsely calling yours science, as regards the past you try to claim was the same as the present. If you could prove it, it would be rational, but you have lost track of reality, and having only belief matters not any more to you.
 
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dad

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Opethian said:
Too bad I wasn't here to experience those, I was thinking of starting a book with "dumbest creationist quotes". At first I estimated I should be able to get it finished in a couple of years, but the way this is going, I could have it in print by next week!
Lets hope there are some evos left to read it, for your sake, then.
 
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JRNetwork

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It has been solved. The universe is not 10,000 years old, or 4,500,000,000,000 years old either. In a breakthrough discovery (yesterday at 5:13 my time), it was determined that the universe is only 5,000 by a very credible source.

Our planet has been observing your puny species since your planet was created 5,000 years ago... by God. (Then they both do the sign of the cross)

Source: The Simpsons


So you were both wrong, put the arguement to rest since it seems that neither will be able to convince each other.
 
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