If stars were made for man to see there is no millions of years light travel time

dad

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To get a handle on your question you should define what you mean by "time" which you have not yet done.
I don't think science knows what 'time' is. There are some discrepancies for example in how time is thought of in the quantum realm, and relativity. I think of time more in the Newtonian sense almost, where it is something real and separate from space or gravity and etc.
Also, whatever it 'is' doesn't really matter that much when we ask the question whether time as we know it here (where an hour is and hour, and a month a month..etc) is the very same in the distant universe. (because the question is whether it is the same, not what it is)

But anyhow if time is conceived of as a measurement of the material universe- say movement from one point to another, as defined by whatever measurement tool you are using, then "time" is the same on earth as it is on a deep space nebula.
No, I do not think time is a clock only, and just an 'imaginary' thing that marks distances of physical objects. But even there, you could not really say the universe is the same as here, because the only place we measure/observe things is here. If we see light from a star or stars..that light has streamed in to our space and time! Whatever time anything takes can only be experienced in our time here!

The speed of light is the same on earth as it is on said nebula. And yes, yes there is more to it that that, but you get the general outline..

Is it though? Show us how you determine that in an example. I don't think you can.
As for looking up at the stars and seeing reflected light that is millions of years old, that presents no real theological problem. It simply is an outcome of the massive scope of God's universe, and he has put man in the perfect position to be able to see and apprehend to some extent the vastness and glory of that physical creation. But this is only the physical. There is another realm beyond the mere material that men may also truly apprehend in Christ.
If there is no time out there as we know it here, then we cannot say that there are billions or millions of our years involved, which is the point.
 
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HeffersonDavidos

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I don't think science knows what 'time' is. There are some discrepancies for example in how time is thought of in the quantum realm, and relativity. I think of time more in the Newtonian sense almost, where it is something real and separate from space or gravity and etc.
Also, whatever it 'is' doesn't really matter that much when we ask the question whether time as we know it here (where an hour is and hour, and a month a month..etc) is the very same in the distant universe. (because the question is whether it is the same, not what it is)


I don't think time can be fully separate from space because "time" exists in a material universe as measured by humans using the concept. Even an atomic particle operates in some sort of space and its movement can be measured with the conceptual dimension called "time".

Whatever time anything takes can only be experienced in our time here!

Fair enough. But if the material universe has a starting point, as the Big Bang approach posits, then "time" as measured by humans is a meaningful phenomenon. That approach demonstrates for example that the universe is still expanding from that origin point or moment, and can make some estimates (crude as they are) therefrom.

Is it though? Show us how you determine that in an example. I don't think you can.

We know time is the same on earth as on the nebula because both earth and the nebula exit in a material realm, which according to strong current data, has an origin point or moment.


If there is no time out there as we know it here, then we cannot say that there are billions or millions of our years involved, which is the point

If there are no humans around to measure, the point as far as humans becomes moot, and i agree science has its limits. The concept necessarily must go into the metaphysical realm. But as said above, some strong data does indicate that the material universe has an origin moment or point. That universe includes both deep space and earth, and is per the data, expanding even as we type. If this data is correct then time is a meaningful entity. Now of course there are a whole lot of other philosophical arguments related to time and what we think of as "reality." But that's a whole other thread that would consume hundreds of pages. But hey who has the "time" to examine a few centuries worth of debates? lol..
 
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dad

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..

I don't think time can be fully separate from space because "time" exists in a material universe as measured by humans using the concept.
Time existing does not mean it is the same everywhere.


Even an atomic particle operates in some sort of space and its movement can be measured with the conceptual dimension called "time".
The only particles man has ever seen operate are in this time and space right here.

Fair enough. But if the material universe has a starting point, as the Big Bang approach posits,
Such as God creating space (the firmament) posits.

then "time" as measured by humans is a meaningful phenomenon. That approach demonstrates for example that the universe is still expanding from that origin point or moment, and can make some estimates (crude as they are) therefrom.
No. It doesn't. If time were not existing the same in deep space redshift would lose the meaning science has attached to it, that is the reason they think expansion exists.

We know time is the same on earth as on the nebula because both earth and the nebula exit in a material realm, which according to strong current data, has an origin point or moment.
False, it is belief, not data that makes them mistakenly think they know there was some speck o soup that popped out the universe.

If there are no humans around to measure, the point as far as humans becomes moot, and i agree science has its limits.
It is very germane when science claims there are billions of light years involved.

The concept necessarily must go into the metaphysical realm. But as said above, some strong data does indicate that the material universe has an origin moment or point.
No. The mental reverse extrapolations of trying to imagine how an expanding universe once was going the other way to the point of a little hot soup
are ased on assuming time exists the same out there, and that is belief, not data. How does time affect space? Who knows?How does time affect light in space where time is very different than here? Who knows? How would time and space that was different affect light so that it bends? Who knows? Etc etc etc. Science has merely interpreted what it sees using the time and space and realities of this world and nature and physics.

That universe includes both deep space and earth, and is per the data, expanding even as we type.
Show us this data, and let's see if time could be a part of the mix!
If this data is correct then time is a meaningful entity.
Yes time is very meaningful and the way God set it up to exist near earth and our solar system area is of great importance. That does not mean time exists the same all over the universe.
 
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Jonathan Walkerin

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Yes time is very meaningful and the way God set it up to exist near earth and our solar system area is of great importance. That does not mean time exists the same all over the universe.

Certainly there are places where space-time gets little weird like around black holes however saying Alpha Centauri coud be just outside our solar system because time does not exist is just your baseless assertion.

We do not really see any objects either but the light reflected from them at certain wavelength. Perhaps we are just seeing projected reality without any actual objects because the Devil has reality wavelength projector and everythings we touch is in reality Devil`s buttock that he can actually shape to be any kind of form we think reality is.

This is about as sensible assertion as your theories. No proof, No evidence, No sense.
 
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GodLovesCats

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There was no early universe...earth was first and the stars made later. Unless you mean the first few days of creation?

Did you really think the definition of universe is dependent on when Earth and stars were made? Consider all of the other space bodies. Many of them are much older than Sol, Luna, and Earth.
 
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dad

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Certainly there are places where space-time gets little weird like around black holes however saying Alpha Centauri coud be just outside our solar system because time does not exist is just your baseless assertion.
OK, so...why? By the way, it doesn't matter if that star group was 'just outside' our area, or on the other side of the universe. If there is no great time involved in light moving there, distance doesn't matter.
We do not really see any objects either but the light reflected from them at certain wavelength.
Interesting!

Perhaps we are just seeing projected reality without any actual objects....
Well, perhaps there is a spiritual component to some things way way out there that would not show up in the instruments of physical science. Good point. After all we know stars are associated with spirits in the bible.
 
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dad

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Did you really think the definition of universe is dependent on when Earth and stars were made? Consider all of the other space bodies. Many of them are much older than Sol, Luna, and Earth.
Yes. I think all the stars were created after the earth, and that the heavens we now see will be no more one day soon. The way that science determines age is basically beliefs.
 
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GodLovesCats

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Yes. I think all the stars were created after the earth, and that the heavens we now see will be no more one day soon. The way that science determines age is basically beliefs.

Science is the opposite of beliefs. It is facts. To deny this is to not know what science is.
 
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GodLovesCats

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Not the origin 'sciences' or cosmology. They are wholly belief based whether you realize it or not.

Paleontology, biology, virology, chemistry, physics, anthropology, archaeology, astronomy, geology, and all of their subspecialties are loaded with proven scientific facts. Beliefs come from a lack of understanding of these facts or education in the subjects.
 
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dad

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Paleontology, biology, virology, chemistry, physics, anthropology, archaeology, astronomy, geology, and all of their subspecialties are loaded with proven scientific facts. Beliefs come from a lack of understanding of these facts or education in the subjects.
They are loaded with a lot of things, including unfragrant beliefs.

In the case of this thread the belief is that time is the same in the far universe, allowing for billions of years that never existed.
 
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GodLovesCats

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It is impossible for billions of years to never exist. Time in infinite. Human time is finite because there is a day we are born and a day we will die (physically, of course). Astronomers know there is time in space. It is witnessed in the life cycles of stars, which are born grow, worm up or cool down, shrink, glow, and die. There is always time at the source where light comes from (a star) and where the light arrives (a planet). The quesiton is about time in literal space, where there are no celestial bodies for sunlight to reach.
 
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dad

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It is impossible for billions of years to never exist. Time in infinite.
It is not impossible for Adam and creation to not be billions of years ago. The stars made for Adam to see in the week of creation have no connection to billions of year ago in the bible.

Cosmology looks at the measured speed of light on earth and in this solar system. That is what they believe is 'the speed' of light anywhere. It should be obvious that if time as we know it here did not exist the same out there in far space, that we could not use time on earth as the universal norm.

Human time is finite because there is a day we are born and a day we will die (physically, of course). Astronomers know there is time in space. It is witnessed in the life cycles of stars, which are born grow, worm up or cool down, shrink, glow, and die.
Not true. The imagined time involved in stellar evolution is millions of years, or some great amount of years that have never been observed at all.
Just because a star may be born or appear does not mean that anything took millions of years! Just because a star may go out does not mean great time either. That cycle is a belief only. Sorry to have to break the news to you. Stellar evolution as taught by science is fake news. Speculation based on beliefs.
There is always time at the source where light comes from (a star) and where the light arrives (a planet).
No man has ever been to any star. You have no authority to tell us about what time is like there as the light is always seen here only.
The quesiton is about time in literal space, where there are no celestial bodies for sunlight to reach.
No. That is not THE question here at all, or even A question! Sunlight?
 
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GodLovesCats

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Dad, your post is obviously biased against science. You want to believe science is fake, but science is only FACTS. Science is REALITY. If you don't want to accept this, that is your problem. Are you a physicist? An astronomer? A chemist? I highly doubt it.
 
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Francis Drake

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So my best guess is that time does not exist as we know it in deep space. After all if time is not there (the same as here) then it could not take great time for light to move there.
God created Oak trees. He didn't create an acorn then stand around 150 years waiting for it to look like an oak.
If Adam had taken an axe to the first oak tree, he could have counted the rings and said, "Hey Eve look at this, its got 150 rings, it must be 150 years old!"

Adam likewise was not created a fetus or a small child, he was created as a mature young man. Anyone looking at his photo might have said, "Good looking fellow, about 25 years old." Despite him being 2 days old.

Having already created light, God created the sun and planets, and as he did so, he threaded an aura of light radiating from those planetary bodies as far as earth. That way, a scientist would look at it and say, "The sun is 93million miles away blah blah etc."
 
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dad

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Dad, your post is obviously biased against science. You want to believe science is fake, but science is only FACTS. Science is REALITY. If you don't want to accept this, that is your problem. Are you a physicist? An astronomer? A chemist? I highly doubt it.
Thanks for your statement of faith. However the trick here would be to post something relevant to the topic, that you think science has to offer.
 
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dad

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God created Oak trees. He didn't create an acorn then stand around 150 years waiting for it to look like an oak.
I agree, the bible suggests that trees grew in weeks in that former nature and time.
Possibly faster before the fall.
If Adam had taken an axe to the first oak tree, he could have counted the rings and said, "Hey Eve look at this, its got 150 rings, it must be 150 years old!"
Being smart, he would have known the world was only a week old or so, so the the rings would not be confused with modern nature growth timing.


Adam likewise was not created a fetus or a small child, he was created as a mature young man. Anyone looking at his photo might have said, "Good looking fellow, about 25 years old." Despite him being 2 days old.
Likewise he would not have been confused about how he got there or how he was formed or how long it took.
Having already created light, God created the sun and planets, and as he did so, he threaded an aura of light radiating from those planetary bodies as far as earth. That way, a scientist would look at it and say, "The sun is 93million miles away blah blah etc."

OK, that is one opinion. But the sun and planets only take seconds to have their light reach earth generally. Not sure why we need some threaded aura. As for the stars, if light was created in place, then you also need to say that all the info in that light was also poofed into being.
 
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Francis Drake

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I agree, the bible suggests that trees grew in weeks in that former nature and time.
Possibly faster before the fall.
Being smart, he would have known the world was only a week old or so, so the the rings would not be confused with modern nature growth timing.
Oh dear, I was merely inventing a narrative to make a point.
Likewise he would not have been confused about how he got there or how he was formed or how long it took.
I never said or intimated that Adam was confused about where he came from. It was a story to illustrate a point, and besides, cameras hadn't been invented then, so don't take it so seriously.
The simple fact is, he was obviously created a mature young man.

OK, that is one opinion. But the sun and planets only take seconds to have their light reach earth generally. Not sure why we need some threaded aura. As for the stars, if light was created in place, then you also need to say that all the info in that light was also poofed into being.
"Aura" simply means it already radiated sufficient created light to be seen from earth, and did so from creation.
I think my description was slightly more refined than "poofed into being" Lol
 
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dad

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Oh dear, I was merely inventing a narrative to make a point.

I never said or intimated that Adam was confused about where he came from. It was a story to illustrate a point, and besides, cameras hadn't been invented then, so don't take it so seriously.
The simple fact is, he was obviously created a mature young man.


"Aura" simply means it already radiated sufficient created light to be seen from earth, and did so from creation.
I think my description was slightly more refined than "poofed into being" Lol
OK, but if we claim He imlanted the info in the light from stars, as if the light came from the star, then we might as well claim He implanted fossils, dinos and etc.
 
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Francis Drake

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OK, but if we claim He imlanted the info in the light from stars, as if the light came from the star, then we might as well claim He implanted fossils, dinos and etc.
I said nothing in the slightest to indicate that conclusion, making the above a very silly argument.
And given that dinosaurs were part of the animal creation, and roamed the earth when Adam did, creating fossils would be an empty and pointless exercise.
 
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