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Featured If somebody practices a sinful life claiming to be saved, how would you minister to him/her?

Discussion in 'Christian Advice' started by unfinishedclay, Nov 29, 2017.

  1. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Sometimes when I want to share God, but don't want someone to feel like I am judging them I will ask them kind of if I can share.

    Like, "Would you mind if I shared with you some scripture that has helped me in the past ... " or something like that.
     
  2. unfinishedclay

    unfinishedclay Newbie

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    Wow. Once again, let me point out that you missed the point. A-lot. But I understand your pov.

    First of all, my originally posted concern was about dealing with loved ones and people close within our circle. Generally, people get into heated discussions sometimes within families and circle of associates. You may be an exception. I realize exceptions do exist. My point was about the theme of discussion being topics that are clearly addressed Biblically. And so, going back and forth with them on such topics leaves me to wonder whether I should converse as fellow believers - meaning in agreement on certain topics OR instead of taking their word for whether they are saved, simply minister to them. (Not preach to them, not delegate what callings or activities should they have, not comment on what's right and wrong in their lives.) Just minister the gospel to them, not taking any chances that they are saved or not. And yes, upon discussion of certain topics, point out why I have my pov as supported by Scripture.

    I later clarified with examples on how I've gone back and forth with people in discussions - a man physically terrorizing his (former) wife, my friend (by his own smug admission because she was too ashamed to disclose to anybody what had been going on). If you're the type who would stay silent about that...if you're the type who can just nod your head while a man casually talks about his "girlfriend", who is also the wife/mother of her own family...if you find that polite conversation is far more acceptable than sharing the gospel, well then you go on ahead and feel proud of yourself for doing so. But your critiquing me of what I do falls right back within its own parameters ricocheting right back onto you. To say I'm policing them - whether that wording is an agenda-based accusation or not - looks quite similar to your own comments as "policing" what you THINK my motives are. And that's okay. That doesn't make you a bad person - just incorrect.

    Your assessment of me and my desire to get the gospel out is SPOT-ON. But beyond that, again, you basically stepped into another dimension on me scrutinizing people's lives unless you just believe a person's calling to share the gospel entails scrutinizing. And the way in which you think I want to share the gospel shows your common misinterpretation of what I'm saying in this whole thread. A lot of people think that's what I'm trying to do.

    Do I want to share the gospel with everyone I can? Absolutely, I do. I haven't always done it right and still learning. And I've been doing it for years whether people want to "police" my actions or not, and whether it offends people or not. USUALLY, the people who are offended are NOT the ones receiving the gospel - not even a man pushing his wife around. A lot of people appreciate the gospel the gospel enough to hear a breakdown of it in conversations, whether they accept it or still yet reject it like King Agrippa. Usually, the ones offended by somebody wanting to share the gospel are the spectators - the ones not in those conversations but know about the conversations (like I've mentioned for insight by those who can relate). The know-it-alls who know so much that their way is better than even the very Bible itself. The ones that have so much criticism to say about somebody wanting to witness the gospel, yet they themselves don't have enough of the same self-examination they promote in order to recognize the butting-in according to their own standards.

    I've come to a place where, instead of taking somebody's word for it, I don't tell them they are not saved. But I do tell them what the Word says within our conversation. I'm not going up to family or strangers and saying, "You shouldn't buy that liquor...You shouldn't cheat...You shouldn't lie..." UNLESS what's said is said to me or directed at me. But either way, I witness to them - again, so as not to wound any fragilities, I don't preach at them. I bring the gospel into relevant conversation and minister, as many do to me as well. I keep my questions about their salvation to myself and minister to them. I used to think like you. But I had to put my own opinion aside, realizing my opinion does not matter. What God's Word says mattes.

    And I am not a leader in any office at church. I don't make decisions about people. And I have never reported anybody before. In organizational settings, I quietly share the gospel if I see wrong right within my face. Ex. Teens being disrespectful...and such.

    And I blog with a clear recognition of what I believe are issues to address among believers. And the blogs, basically an extensively longer version of how we post here, have my concerns as you have yours here. And I realize, in your book, yours are RIGHT. YOU are the one that has it all together. Who do I think I am trying to witness according to Scripture, instead of according to the opinions and standards bekkilyn? To sum it all up, I think I get what you're asking. Based on what authority and how should I go about witnessing? According to bekkilyn's book? Not according to the Word?
     
  3. unfinishedclay

    unfinishedclay Newbie

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    Amen. Yes, I've done that too. I agree.
     
  4. joshcorn

    joshcorn Member

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    These are the worst of times and yet they are the best of times. This should drive you closer to Jesus and ask Him these questions,It is there you will find what you need to known and get understanding.
     
  5. unfinishedclay

    unfinishedclay Newbie

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    Yes, your saying this is 2nd confirmation for me within 48 hours. I agree.
     
  6. disciple1

    disciple1 Newbie

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    According to you theirs not point in posting here, this is the love I'm talking about, helping someone in need, not letting them teach false things about Christ.

    Matthew chapter 25 verses 31-46
    When the Son of Man comes" in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. he will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me. then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and got visit you? The King will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me. Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.They also will answer, Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you? He will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me. Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.
     
  7. bekkilyn

    bekkilyn Well-Known Member

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    The reason there has been a lot of misinterpretation in this thread is that you were extremely vague on the specifics in your OP, so responses tend to get very generalized and may or may not apply to your exact situation. If you are in the midst of a crisis situation, then yes, please get help *immediately*.

    My question concerning authority was about whether you would be making corrections to people based on God's authority vs. your own authority, and really the only way to find out is by taking the matter up with God in prayer and perhaps asking other believers to pray with you for discernment.

    Are you completely alone with all of these issues, or are there others in your family or church who could help you?
     
  8. unfinishedclay

    unfinishedclay Newbie

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    Not really alone in the family on most issues except a few until I'm opposed. Frustrating for the most part. But all I can do is pray and seek the Lord. I've instructed my adult kids constantly about the wrong of marijuana and that they should keep their eyes one Christ and firmly stand against temptation. Among adult family, I was the bad guy for speaking up and being "hypocritical" because I wasn't considering my own youthful sins. (The way they know about those youthful sins is because I testify about my past.) I'm "judgmental" toward them for giving them the Word despite all the trouble they've gotten into.

    My husband criticized me for being straight laced and telling everybody about Christ as uncompromisingly as I could tho I have failed too. Said I judged during a time I didn't even know he was in an affair with a woman in early 20's. Then she called introducing herself to me upset with him for still being married. I calmed her and ministered to her salvation. Then had to repent for the way I dealt with him. NOW dealing with passive attitude from church senior leadership about the affair. (Not to say they aren't humble leaders. They undoubtedly are. I'd never want to leave them and neither would my husband in his new life/repentance.) But I struggle with the passivity. And I struggle with statements made at the forefront that any spouse tempted to cheat could hear and feel perfectly okay with cheating. And that causes agony for me because I no longer know what my husband is capable of and nobody addresses adultery from the Bible text and put adultery on the same plane with a betrayed they consider as jealous as result from adultery. It leaves people like me with a feeling of insecurity in the area of marital trust alone and insecurity about secondly leadership trust on whether they can really disciple an ex adulterer or cause him to stumble with passive statements that undermine the pain of those betrayed. Can I do anything about it in the church environment? Not at all besides pray and vent. On that, I'm alone except in prayer. Scared to share with unbelievers in my family. They can stumble if I talk to them possibly. I don't share with fellow members because I don't want to sow discord.

    But I refuse to let in-laws mention anymore affairs to me (after my husband's affair was facilitated among some of them) without me speaking up. Not that I've never spoken up about the gospel. I have. And have been criticized for years. But this new level of pain, disheartening, shock, and dismay - at what professing Christians are capable of doing - can make a person feel lonely. And with nobody who really understands offline except a very select few including CF's Farine (a BFF) And that's okay.

    Getting insight online does help me explore what in the world is going on among us as believers. Belonging to a support group of many non believers who have been cheated on in marriage, I find that they have a more defined stand against adultery than the church does. They actually believe in calling out right and wrong. They don't accuse anybody of judging when discussing how they speak up to cheating people in their lives because of their heartfelt empathy for betrayed. How is it that unbelievers can provide such a safer environment than we can in Christian arena?

    It's been upsetting on a very personal level because maybe that's why so many feel comfortable switching faces at the door of the sanctuary. Pretend inside. Spend 1000's on an affair outside. We've lost so much financially from that affair. 22 years of marriage and I have no more security in our sanctity than a newly courting couple with mere hopes for the future.

    I'm often vague for that reason. But I've already shared this in the marriage forum. Re-capping is no problem. But what I have gone through has given me more determination to do outreach than ever despite opposition I always faced. And so when I look into that mission and certain things on my heart, I explore without going into detail because I assume the back story doesn't necessarily matter when addressing spreading of the gospel. I'm realizing, it actually does in a small way in my shoes. But I try reminding myself too it really is not about me. Just the gospel. I wish I didn't care in the way I do. Then I wouldn't be so passionate. I could then be like those who just share the Word and let the seed fall where it may. That's not me yet.
     
  9. Emmy

    Emmy Senior Veteran

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    Dear unfinishedclay. How would I minister? Always with love and compassion. Love is very catching, and love will always be the victor, and also, Satan and his followers will run away from all Love.
    In Matthew 22: 35-40: Jesus tells us: The first and great Commandment is: Love God with heart, soul and mind. The second is like it: love thy neighbour as thyself." In verse 40 we are told: on these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. God is Love, and God wants loving men and women.
    The Bible tells us: give up all selfish words and wishes, start loving and caring for all we know and all we meet. That sounds a bit hard, but love will grow and grow. Jesus died that we might live, and Jesus will lead us back to God. Jesus is the WAY. Love will soon grow and help us to be the sons and daughters which God wants. Let us try to be loving and caring for all around us. God will see our Love and Joy and Peace and Compassion, and God will Bless us greatly. Life will be wonderful. Love covers all good things, and love will bring us to God for ever and ever. I say this with love, unfinishedclay. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Chris. P.s. Love will always be the victor, if we let it, and live accordingly. Let love change this imperfect world.
     
  10. discipler7

    discipler7 Active Member

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    Fyi, there are some US boys who "pretend" to join the Church with the ulterior motive of eventually marrying a good Christian virgin girl because good virgin girls in liberal USA is an "endangered species". Some adults will even "pretend" to join various Churches with the ulterior motive of selling life insurance, Amway/Shaklee/Tupperware products, real estate, etc.
    ... It is up to the Church pastors/elders to protect their flock from such evil. But some Churches value tithes from new joining-members more than protecting their flock from evil imposters.

    MATTHEW.7: =
    The Narrow Way
    13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

    You Will Know Them by Their Fruits
    15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

    I Never Knew You
    21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
     
  11. unfinishedclay

    unfinishedclay Newbie

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    Amen. Almost married 23 years now. And as of now, 2 years after ending of affair/my discovery day, I see a little fruit of his repentance for now. A little.

    Anyway, yes I believe you about motives. While I've hoped that wasn't the case with him in 90's, there is nothing I can do about that. Regardless, he's a family man. Now, I just want to take my memories, knowledge, conversation with other woman, and aftermath drama to the Lord to make a difference just from my shoes. No church authority but a willingness to go in the field. Yes, i help the poor and homeless. But not enough. I want to make a difference within my circle of family and friends and to my blog following without error and with a servant outlook. And if I should ever encounter - knowingly or unknowingly - any cheating spouse/affair partner, wayward adult children or anybody else (whether they ID as believers or not) - I want to make that difference I would have wanted somebody to make in my husband's life when he was in his affair. I am baffled to the core that there are unbelievers in my support group who openly talk about how they empathize with betrayed spouses enough that they speak out against affairs that they see around them but Christians who are supposed to be both light (unspoken) and salt (spoken) bow out of opportunity. I experience the passivity offline. But in this thread, i get a chance to see why many Chriatians hide it under bushels or let their salt lose it's seasoning. And that wasn't even my purpose for posting. I was literally wondering, per my ending question in op, if anyone could relate to that calling to share the Word under ALL circumstances with the mentioned challenges. And not sharing with one-way communicating with someone on platform while other listen. I mean in everyday life, conversation.

    Thanks for sharing those passages Disciple7
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2017
  12. unfinishedclay

    unfinishedclay Newbie

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    Amen. Thank you, Emmy.
     
  13. unfinishedclay

    unfinishedclay Newbie

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    I understand. I appreciate the posted passage Disciple1.
     
  14. unfinishedclay

    unfinishedclay Newbie

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    Yes. I agree Michael. At one time, after everything I've gone through just as a wife and and as a mom, I would have been discouraged by this. But not now. Change in me has happened and continues to happen little by little as with many fellow believers. I do see re-developed focus in areas. 2 Corinthians 3:18

    Thanks.
     
  15. GirdYourLoins

    GirdYourLoins Well-Known Member

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    I find myself in a situation where I am dealing with someone deliberately and unrepentantly breaking the law. I was not aware how bad his lawbreaking was until i started dealing with him and have now told him I will not deal with him any more. I need to speak to him about paying him for the work he has already done but it is poor quality as well as being done without regard for the legal requirements. It is likely to cost me a lot more money to get the work he has done redone within the legal requirements when I could easily just let him finish it and no one would ever be the wiser, except me.

    He is a Christian and apparently completely not bothered by the fact that he is breaking the law and he has no intention to stop. I know his pastor as well and spoke to him last week. I will also be following up with the pastor and tell him I do not agree with his allowing this person to continue to break the law while leading a ministry in his church.

    The way I do things is to just tell people how I see things. I am always prepared to talk about it and try to show grace in dealing with people, but I'm not very good at being tactful. I am very forthright and plain speaking. Sometimes Christians need to hear that what they are doing is wrong in order to have the chance to repent.
     
  16. unfinishedclay

    unfinishedclay Newbie

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    Yes. And what initially gave me this outlook years ago was the number of bold fellow believers who corrected me as a young adult Christian. And that never stopped. I'm always corrected or called out in some kind of way within my circle - whether by believers or by those who profess to be believers but demonstrate the opposite. I'm talked about behind my back for being "ultra-conservative" or "staunch" (as I've been told), for being doormat for not divorcing my wayward husband, and for causing problems for my kids with "too much lenience" or "too much strictness".

    To tell a lot of people flat-out that they're wrong - using the same force they use on me (literally to start one-sided arguments that they don't like getting refuted on) - has definitely caused tension. I basically started realizing recently to keep lines of communication open and communicate with them as I would somebody I'm trying to win for Christ. Sometimes that's ongoing. But as tomorrow is not promised, I do pray for wisdom in my words and that eyes be opened. I really am more concerned about salvation than offending (again, as offensive things are said to me making me feel like Ezekiel being told by God "as their faces are hard, I'm making your face hard against theirs). And that doesn't make me better than them or anybody. I'm just urgent in heart and really want to see them and people saved.

    In your situation, do understand about that person abusing opportunity and giving you shabby service. I'd talk to their leader, too. And I'd flat out tell that person how wrong he is for bad service.
     
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