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Featured If somebody practices a sinful life claiming to be saved, how would you minister to him/her?

Discussion in 'Christian Advice' started by unfinishedclay, Nov 29, 2017.

  1. Open Heart

    Open Heart Messianic Jewish Catholic

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    Be careful, because once you head down this road it will lead you here:
    He who loves is born of God, and knows God. 1 John 4:7
    And we have all met unbelievers who are very loving.
     
  2. unfinishedclay

    unfinishedclay Newbie

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    So, by your own statement, then you should love him like Christ and not make such a statement. Right? do you see the hypocrisy that creeps up even when you take a stance contrary to Jesus showing us to correct - even in sternness? Based on what you said in previous post, "love should cover this wrong you see." Right? Yet you feel a need to accuse the brother of lying. Where's the love that is based on your terms?

    I believe if I stick to the text of the Word, I'm going to be accused (as you're accusing Jason) of being unloving, and I'm also leaving myself to open to look unloving if I take your approach. I just have to stick to the text. Obey God rather than man. And it's not going to be popular. That's just the truth.
     
  3. Open Heart

    Open Heart Messianic Jewish Catholic

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    It's always best to:
    1. Work on our own sins first and
    2. Make sure we don't confront them with an arrogant attitude as if we have halos over our own heads.
     
  4. unfinishedclay

    unfinishedclay Newbie

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    Many do love - in the world's terms. Jesus specifically defined what it means to love in connection to Him. Agape love, the love of Christ. You are right that there is a world's love - and it feels great. It does not impress God.
     
  5. Open Heart

    Open Heart Messianic Jewish Catholic

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    I have met unbelievers who have loved with the same selfless love.
     
  6. unfinishedclay

    unfinishedclay Newbie

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    Who said that's being done? Why is it that at the mention of correcting somebody or (in my case) ministering to somebody to the point they will want to surrender to Jesus Christ Whom they only say they love in word alone, that the thing to say is this ^^?? Yes, Jesus did say to cast the object from eye before seeing an object in another. Then what? Twittle our thumbs? Convince ourselves that our walk alone will shine so much light that our testimony and spoken calling can take a rest? What does the Word of God say in it's completion? Why are isolated passages pointed out to promote silence and the popular way of letting our little light shine?
     
  7. unfinishedclay

    unfinishedclay Newbie

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    Not with the love of Christ. If a person says, "I will love people by giving my very life for them" and within their hearts say, "But I don't have to have Jesus Christ in order to do that," what would that mean to God? According to His Word? What would that mean to Him Who is the only One Who matters?
     
  8. Open Heart

    Open Heart Messianic Jewish Catholic

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    I suppose that there are just certain things that are sooooo important to be kept in moderation, and sooooooooooooo often in real life we DON'T stay moderate but go to one extreme or the other. The truth is that people tend to be either the "Judge not" types that cop out and allow sin in the church, or they are pharisees, hypocrites that like to point out the flaws in others. Finding that balance that Christ wants of us is just really difficult.

    And perhaps I am better at insisting we don't correct from an arrogant attitude because that's my personal flaw that I'm always trying to fix. I have to remind myself a lot.
     
  9. Open Heart

    Open Heart Messianic Jewish Catholic

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    There are non-Christians who sacrifice their lives for others. That's agape love.
     
  10. bekkilyn

    bekkilyn Well-Known Member

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    On whose command? Did God himself ordain her to enact such an inquisition against her neighbors?

    On whose authority are you making this determination? Is Jesus no longer judge of who is true and who is false?
     
  11. unfinishedclay

    unfinishedclay Newbie

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    I have a similar problem, Open Heart. My correction comes from a sincere desire to do God's will and heed to His Word. And failure on my part happens when I become passionate and argumentative. And I've had to pull back and ask the Lord to help me with a sorrowful heart for my angry attitude.

    I hate it when people come around me and want to strike up conversations about how they have a clear view on the Bible while facilitating affairs. For one reason, that's exactly what my husband did years ago. And so, I go off - caught off guard because I don't bring certain stuff up - when things are mentioned. And I ask offensive questions as pertaining to the Word or make offensive points about the Word. And those questions have come across like this: "How can you talk about this relationship when there is a father at home wishing he could have his complete family back, not knowing his wife has a boyfriend??"

    I hate to see my young sons high on marijuana, not a care in the world constantly being stopped by police, and want the respect of being recognized as a Christian. I love them tooooooo much to role-play and let them go down a path I can contribute to preventing if I let the Lord use my mouth. My downfall has been my anger and frustration to find them high in my house - endangering the rest of us with law enforcement for the company they keep.

    The list goes on. We are the lights of the world and salt of the earth, according to Matthew 5. We're not called to be quiet but to speak for Christ when we can where we can. That doesn't mean stop examining ourselves. That's part of it, now that I think about it.

    But in modern American church, we have made our own map to living for Christ. It's one that's comfortable, non-offensive for the most hurtful of sinners (like adulterers in congregations/thieves/gossipers/slanderers/so on), and hypocritical because in order to ensure sinful lifestyles aren't corrected we correct those who are trying to follow the instructions/examples of Christ??? That's backwards.
     
  12. unfinishedclay

    unfinishedclay Newbie

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    Can your questions possibly be answered without considering: "Based on what Bible can he tell you?"

    I WISH somebody would have stepped up to the plate and told my husband to repent for his evil against his family when he carried on with his mistress as the "Christian man" our community knows him as and would have warned him of what the Word says about living a sinful lifestyle. And anybody making the questioning points you've posted here would have been like an enemy to our family (victims of the hurt from adultery). And what do you think such questioning looks like to God. We ALL have to correct somebody at some level and not turn a sluggish eye at the opportunity.

    For years, I worked in a field that required meticulous attention to the concerns of our customers or else errors could result in financial disaster for them as consumers. So, if my co-workers and I chose not to correct each other (with help, resources, pointing to references during one-on-one recap of our training) but instead turn a sluggish apathetic eye, where would that lead for our customers?? You as a human being know the correct answer to that.

    And so what? As believers, we're less effective in making a difference to our surroundings than co-workers in the workplace?? Many CO-WORKERS have enough sense to not think that correcting a fellow worker doesn't mean "bossing them" or having authority. It means crisis prevention that would go both ways for each person with the others there to assist.

    So, to answer your question, "On whose command? Did God himself ordain her to enact such an inquisition against her neighbors? On whose authority are you making this determination? Is Jesus no longer judge of who is true and who is false?" You've missed the point by a quantum leap. Ever heard statements like these before? Ever? "Beaver, Dad said we can't do this or that...Marsha, you know what mom told us to do before dinner. We have to follow the rules...Jim, Dad will be upset if you take the car tonight..." Hello??? Where is the inquisition against a brother/sister/neighbor? Where is the authority other than pointing out to the other person in sincere concern? You already know the answer.
     
  13. Open Heart

    Open Heart Messianic Jewish Catholic

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    I think we are two peas in a pod! :)

    My temperament is what they call INFJ. Among other things, they say it means that of all the personalities, mine is the strongest on ethics. I hold myself to extremely high standards and have very earnest values. I tend to be a perfectionist with myself. I'm a lot more easy going with others, but there are just some things that I peg as harmful, and when someone else violates those values, my "live and let live" attitude flies out the window.

    I think it's a bad joke that the churches make a big stink about homosexuality like it's the only sin, when meanwhile gossip is way out of control (and gossip is mentioned right alongside homosexual acts as a sin that will send you to hell).

    It's taken me my whole life to learn (and indeed I am continuing to learn more) but really there are whole different languages to use for different people when conveying to them that they are doing wrong. You speak differently to a child than an adult. You speak differently to a thoughtful person than someone who never reflects on anything. You speak differently to a Christian than a non-Christian. You speak differently to a friend or family than i.e. an underling at work. Some people are highly sensitive, and you have to tread gently. Some people feel absolutely no remorse and you kind of have to stomp around in army boots just so that they notice you.

    My pet peeve real life story: Pastor of the church is married and has four kids and everyone loves their family. He begins to have an affair with the church secretary. The church finds out about it. The wife is mortified, but still loves him. He decides to divorce his wife and marry the secretary and remain pastor. 1/3 of the church leaves, but the rest stay. His wife leaves the church, since the situation is intolerable. He is married IN THE CHURCH to the woman he is having the affair with, and remains pastor.

    But I could go on and on... the deacon who attempted to rape my friend and the church board blamed my friends because she smiled too much was another really good one. The pastor's son who molested a friend's little daughter, and their whole family was asked to leave the church while nothing was done regarding the son who had molested the child.
     
  14. Blade

    Blade Veteran Supporter

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    Well who are you to them? When ever you goofed up.. keep doing it wrong what ever.. what did how did Jesus treat you? I understand the feeling and what you see. But.. again who are you to them? What if it was you? If you dont judge dont comdemn.. how would you talk to them? If your not their God.. if you cant save them..if you cant read their heart. What can you do? Is there life hanging in the balance if you or we dont say something? In this.. WHO are you really thinking about? Why does it bother YOU so much? They dont sin against you. Its written by David or.. the sweet sweet Holy Spirit.. against thee and only thee do I sin and do this evil in your sight.

    After this is all over.. no one will ever be able to judge God.. as if HE didnt do enough. No one will. God has ,is ,will make sure no one has the right to judge Him. Some try. There are things in each or our lives no one can see. It can LOOK like SOUND like so many different things. So.. what does LOVE see hear?
     
  15. Open Heart

    Open Heart Messianic Jewish Catholic

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    And we aren't supposed to care if others are being hurt? We aren't supposed to have hearts?
     
  16. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    Yes, it appears that the church at large has neglected the words of James:
    My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins. Js 5:19-20
     
  17. Emmy

    Emmy Senior Veteran

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    Dear unfinishedclay. God is Love, and God wants loving sons and daughters. God is always ready to listen to our prayers. If anyone wants to be God`s man or woman, he or she will only have to ask God`s forgiveness, and promise to change. Jesus tells us in Matthew 22: 35-40: The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it: treat thy neighbour as you want to be treated, always with love and compassion. The Bible tells us: give up al selfish and unloving words and thoughts, ask God for Love and Compassion, for Joy and Peace, then thank God and share it all with thy neighbour. God sees our loving and caring, and God will BLESS us greatly. Let us give up all sinning words and deeds, let us proclaim our Love to God and our neighbour, then thank God and follow Jesus: Jesus is THE WAY. Love is very catching, and before long, we will be the sons and daughters which our Heavenly Father wants. I say this with love, unfinishedclay. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.
     
  18. bekkilyn

    bekkilyn Well-Known Member

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    When someone is being directly harmed by a person's behavior, when there really is a crisis involved, I agree that intervention is immediately required. Whether or not that intervention should be *you*, personally, may remain in question though. Perhaps in such cases it would be best for someone like some elders of that person's church to address, or at least from people that person respects vs. the already disrespected person they are victimizing.

    There is a big difference between genuine crisis situations vs. just seeing general behavior we don't like and feeling it is our God-ordained Christian duty to try to police them over it and over every other detail of their lives. Lots and lots of times we seem to enjoy pointing out everything we believe other people all around us are doing wrong and yet failing to see all the wrong that we are doing ourselves, so this is primarily what I was addressing vs. crisis situations that require immediate attention.

    Also, we do not have the authority to determine whether or not someone is "saved" regardless of what things seem like on the outside. That's between them and God.
     
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  19. Shetel

    Shetel New Member

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  20. Shetel

    Shetel New Member

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    Hello everyone, I' m new to this forum. I honestly believe that although we're Christans , we as Christians are sinners saved by grace through faith in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ for the remission of our sins and according to I John 1:8, we as Christians are also still sinners. What Jesus has already done on behalf of our sins, when He was crucified and resurrected and our faith for the remission of our sins is what has already saved us from not nessecarily sinning, but from going to hell and from being defeated spiritually and in other areas of our lives. Like the Holy Scriptures state, "The good work that God has begun in every single last one of we Christian's lives will be completed until the day Jesus Christ returns for us", both after some of we Christians die and as some of we Christians remain alive, according to I Corinthians 15:50 and there on and also in I or II Thessalonians Chapter 4 as well.
     
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