If salvation was by deeds

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,703
USA
✟184,557.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
There's more to salvation than a ticket to heaven. When a person is saved they receive the Holy Spirit and something happens as a result of that. One can't be saved and have nothing happen as a result of that. I believe when someone is saved and has the Holy Spirit, they automatically produce good works, that they might not even be aware of performing.
And what verse(s) teaches this idea?

Simon the sorcerer "believed and was baptized", the same as "others". And after having hands laid on him to receive the Holy Spirit, his "first act" was to try to purchase the ability to lay his own hands to give the Holy Spirit to others.
 
Upvote 0

Ceallaigh

Veritas Vos Liberabit
Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
18,758
9,860
The Keep
✟571,617.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
And what verse(s) teaches this idea?

Simon the sorcerer "believed and was baptized", the same as "others". And after having hands laid on him to receive the Holy Spirit, his "first act" was to try to purchase the ability to lay his own hands to give the Holy Spirit to others.

There's a reason why I said I believe, rather than scripture teaches. When I get home from running around maybe I'll see if I can find some scripture to back up my opinion.

I don't get your point though.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

5thKingdom

Newbie
Mar 23, 2015
3,698
219
✟35,230.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
5th king
Here you with false accusations and misrepresentations. I posted what I believe, read !


I do not make "false accusations" or knowingly make
misrepresentations. I was clear about what I understood
your position to be and WHY it was not a Biblical position.
I invited you to find ONE VERSE of Scripture to support
that position. I assume, by your response, that you are
not able to find any Biblical support for your "feelings".

Sincerely,
Jim
 
Upvote 0

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Dec 14, 2020
3,824
327
66
Georgia
✟125,375.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
[QUOTE="5thKingdom, post: 75650290, member: 375390"]I do not make "false accusations" or knowingly make
misrepresentations
. I was clear about what I understood
your position to be and WHY it was not a Biblical position.
I invited you to find ONE VERSE of Scripture to support
that position. I assume, by your response, that you are
not able to find any Biblical support for your "feelings".

Sincerely,
Jim[/QUOTE]

You just did with me. I dont care how you try to deny it. I have affirmed the dead state of the elect by nature, and you know it or should have knew it if you pay attention to what you read. And it is heretical to say the vessels of mercy were destined to wrath and hell. It makes God mutable.
 
Upvote 0

5thKingdom

Newbie
Mar 23, 2015
3,698
219
✟35,230.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
You just did with me. I dont care how you try to deny it. I have affirmed the dead state of the elect by nature, and you know it or should have knew it if you pay attention to what you read. And it is heretical to say the vessels of mercy were destined to wrath and hell. It makes God mutable.


I believe I addressed all of your points (with SCRIPTURE)
in posts #131 and #137 and #139. I have nothing to add.


I am still waiting for you to send ONE VERSE that says the elect
DO NOT need to be "called" or "born again" or "justified"
BEFORE they are saved (and fulfill their election as
"vessels of mercy").


You can disagree all you want... that is your right, but you are
only using your "feelings" to support your disagreement while
I have provided SCRIPTURE to prove your "feelings" incorrect.


When you find ONE VERSE in the Bible that supports your
"feelings" that the elect are "vessels of mercy" BEFORE they
are "called" and "indwelt" and "justified"... then let me know.


I could say the elect are SAVED when they are "chosen",
but the SCRIPTURES describe a PROCESS of salvation which
must occur before they are "indwelt"... so I have no Biblical support
for saying the elect are SAVED (justified) before they are "indwelt".
You have a similar problem with your position - you "feel" that it's
Biblical... and yet you cannot FIND any Scripture to support it.


But continuing to disagree with the ONLY support being your own
personal "feelings" is only continuing to disagree without ANY
authority whatsoever. Only SCRIPTURE has authority and
only SCRIPTURE can support/prove your position...
until then you only have your "feelings" and
I have provided SCRIPTURES to refute.


Jim
 
Upvote 0

Loaves and Fishes

Active Member
Dec 25, 2020
90
19
canada
✟16,843.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
39 One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” 40 But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” 43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.” (Luke 23:39-43)

If salvation was by deeds, or including deeds, then what good deeds did this criminal do, and why is he in Heaven? Salvation is through Christ and Christ alone!!!
He is not in heaven nor are anyone that has died except for Jesus Himself.There is only one in heaven John 3:13..."And no one has gone up into heaven except the One having come down out of heaven, the Son of Man."
The coma should be after "today" not before.“Truly, I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise.”
Revelation 20:12 ...And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
Romans 2:6-11-66 ...God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.
 
Upvote 0

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Dec 14, 2020
3,824
327
66
Georgia
✟125,375.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I believe I addressed all of your points (with SCRIPTURE)
in posts #131 and #137 and #139. I have nothing to add.


I am still waiting for you to send ONE VERSE that says the elect
DO NOT need to be "called" or "born again" or "justified"
BEFORE they are saved (and fulfill their election as
"vessels of mercy").


You can disagree all you want... that is your right, but you are
only using your "feelings" to support your disagreement while
I have provided SCRIPTURE to prove your "feelings" incorrect.


When you find ONE VERSE in the Bible that supports your
"feelings" that the elect are "vessels of mercy" BEFORE they
are "called" and "indwelt" and "justified"... then let me know.


I could say the elect are SAVED when they are "chosen",
but the SCRIPTURES describe a PROCESS of salvation which
must occur before they are "indwelt"... so I have no Biblical support
for saying the elect are SAVED (justified) before they are "indwelt".
You have a similar problem with your position - you "feel" that it's
Biblical... and yet you cannot FIND any Scripture to support it.


But continuing to disagree with the ONLY support being your own
personal "feelings" is only continuing to disagree without ANY
authority whatsoever. Only SCRIPTURE has authority and
only SCRIPTURE can support/prove your position...
until then you only have your "feelings" and
I have provided SCRIPTURES to refute.


Jim
Again false misrepresentation and inconsistency, I gave you scripture.
 
Upvote 0

Butterball1

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2020
688
121
59
Tennessee
✟32,337.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
This would totally be in disagreement with all that Paul wrote and preached.

Acts 26:6 - And now it is because of my hope in what God has promised our ancestors that I am on trial today.

iow, what God has promised was eternal life.

Acts 26:22-23 -
22 But God has helped me to this very day; so I stand here and testify to small and great alike. I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen
23 that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

Paul proved that Jesus was the Messiah from "the Scriptures". From the moment he wa saved. Acts 9:20 - At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God.

Acts 20:22 - Yet Saul grew more and more powerful and baffled the Jews living in Damascus by proving that Jesus is the Messiah.

Paul only had the OT to preach from. His message of salvation said "nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen", 26:22-23.


None of these verses says that. In fact, the premier evangelist of all time, the apostle Paul, said this about baptism:

1 Cor 1:17 - For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

Kind of a weird comment to make IF IF IF water baptism was necessary for salvation.

If baptism were necessary for salvation, Paul sure got it wrong. He would have emphasized water baptism along with his preaching the good news to believe in Christ.

And don't forget his answer to the jailer in Acts 16:30,31
30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

Yes, he did baptize the jailer. But v.31 clearly precludes water baptism for salvation.

All who will be saved, (under OT and NT alike) will be saved by Christ but what they had to obey under the OT to be saved by Christ (offering animal sacrifices) is different from what the NT requires (water baptism).

So those ALL those that are saved will be saved by Christ but the common denominator as to who Christ saves and why is obedience to GOd's will. Those who lived under the OT law an dobedient to that law will be saved by Christ as those of us today under the NT law obey it will be saved.

________________________________

1 Corinthians 1:17 "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel:..." This is a not-but ellipsis where Paul was told to put more emphasis on one thing (preaching) over another (baptizing) but not the the total exclusion of baptizing.

1 Corinthians 1:14,16 Paul DID baptize people therefore verse 17 cannot contradict Paul water baptizing men. Matthew 28:19-20, here in the great commission disciples, including Paul, are commanded to go, teach, baptize. It would be a contradiction within Scripture to, on one hand, command disciples to baptize but then command disciples to not baptize.

Paul used the verb "baptize" not the noun 'baptism' for nowhere ever did Paul preach baptism was not part of the gospel, just he was to spend more time on preaching rather than baptizing (verb). Why was this the case? Because those Christians in Corinth had divided themselves and following the person who had baptized them rather than all following Christ as they should have been doing. So Paul refrained from water baptizing as much as he could "Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name", so he did not baptize because he did not want to create more division and NOT because baptism is not part of the gospel.

1 Cor 1:12 "Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ."

To heal this division of verse 12, Paul asked a rhetorical question in the negative in verse 13:

"Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?"

Verse 1 stated in the positive would be: Christ is not divided! Christ was crucified for you, you were baptized in the name of Christ!

Pauls' point is for one to be "OF" someone then 2 things must be true of that someone. That someone must be:
#1) crucified for you
#2) you baptized in the name of that someone.

BOTH of these things must be true. Since Paul, Apollos or Cephas had not been crufied for us, nor is anyone baptized in the name of Paul, Apollos or Cephas then one cannot be OF Paul or OF Apolloos or OF Cephas or OF ANY man. For these two things are true of Christ.

Heb 2:9 Christ was crucifed for every man (#1 above) but every man will not be saved (Matthew 7:13) for every maqn will not be baptized in the name of Christ. Again, BOTH #1 and #2 MUST be true for one to be "OF" Christ. Hence Paul uses the necessity of water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ 9Acts 2:38) to heal the dividion at Corinth in order to get all to be following Christ rather than men.

The phrase "in the name of " is a legal term. I buy a new car so I go the local court hose and register that new car "in the name of Butterball". So in the name of shows ownership. So only those who have been 'baptized in the name of Christ" have come into the ownership of Christ.

So for the jailer of Acts 16 to be OF CHRIST means Christ must have been crucified for him (which Christ was, Hebrews 2:9) and the jailer must be baptized into the name of Christ. Not until the jailers was baptized (verse 33) was he of Christ. Again, BOTH must be true not just one.

The jailer was commanded to beleive in verse 31:

-- the command to "believe", that imperative implies the jailer had both ability and responsibility to believe, he was not totally depraved unable to hear, understand, believe nor do what he was told to do.

--at the time the jailer was commanded to believe in v31 he had not yet been told WHAT to believe, that did not happen until v32. So he could not have been saved by "belief only" in verse 31.

--after Paul told the jailer the word of the Lord in v32, then the jailer repented (washed their stripes) and was baptized. This implies teaching repentance and baptism is part of preaching the gospel (see Acts 2:38 and Peter preached 'repent and be baptized').

--verse 34 says "And he brought them up into his house, and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, with all his house, having believed in God." The pariciple phrase "having believed" would include all the jailer had just done which includes repenting and being baptized. Hence "believed" of verse 34 would be used as a synecdoche were it includes repentance and baptism Just as those who are said to have "believed" in Acts 2:44 were the one s who had been baptized verse 41. Again, "believed" is used as a synecdoche where it includes baptism.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0