If Reincarnation is true then Jesus was sacrificed for no good

[miknik5]

I see no reason to have faith in that claim, as many other religions teach likewise, unfortunately.

Yes many do profess other ways and claims, and "gods"

But GOD, in HIS WISDOM, by sending HIS SON into the world, shut up the mouths of every lying whispering spirit

Because many will profess to have "god" but deny THE SON

There is only ONE TRUTH, and ONE WAY

And he who denies THE SON, denies THE FATHER who sent HIM

And on a sense, calls GOD a liar

Because he does not accept GOD's TESTIMONY which HE has given of HIS SON

 

[miknik5]

If there's only One Way, it sure has many lanes. •‿•

-

No

ONE WAY and DOOR and GATE and VEIL between Heaven/GOD and earth/man

 

[ananda]

Yes many do profess other ways and claims, and "gods"

But GOD, in HIS WISDOM, by sending HIS SON into the world, shut up the mouths of every lying whispering spirit

Because many will profess to have "god" but deny THE SON

There is only ONE TRUTH, and ONE WAY

And he who denies THE SON, denies THE FATHER who sent HIM

And on a sense, calls GOD a liar

Because he does not accept GOD's TESTIMONY which HE has given of HIS SON

How can I accept it, if I haven't witnessed it?

 

[cloudyday2]

How can I accept it, if I haven't witnessed it?

What about how I accepted what I read in text books? It wasn't practical or even possible for me to replicate hundreds of years worth of scientific experiments. I was struggling to understand the "laws" that resulted from the experiments. ... I had confidence in my teachers and confidence in the process of science (including peer review). I also could look around me at airplanes, electrical power, etc. that were engineered using science and seemed to work.

 

[dlamberth]

What about how I accepted what I read in text books? It wasn't practical or even possible for me to replicate hundreds of years worth of scientific experiments. I was struggling to understand the "laws" that resulted from the experiments. ... I had confidence in my teachers and confidence in the process of science (including peer review). I also could look around me at airplanes, electrical power, etc. that were engineered using science and seemed to work.

In all sorts of ways, I believe there is a world of difference between scientific knowledge and spiritual knowledge in how they are experienced, known and wisdom gained.

 

[ananda]

What about how I accepted what I read in text books? It wasn't practical or even possible for me to replicate hundreds of years worth of scientific experiments. I was struggling to understand the "laws" that resulted from the experiments. ... I had confidence in my teachers and confidence in the process of science (including peer review). I also could look around me at airplanes, electrical power, etc. that were engineered using science and seemed to work.

Good question.

Most of the world operates on a measure of faith and trust in the truths discovered in the past by science. If we didn't, we would all have to rediscover every scientific experiment on our own. Obviously this isn't feasible.

I think the main difference between your example, and the claims of religion is this: one purports to address my most fundamental questions regarding existence (religion) and involves my "eternal destiny" - the other does not (science). As such, my standards regarding religion are far, far higher than my standards for science.

Does it ultimately matter if I don't believe in the principles of aerodynamics which govern the operation of airplanes? Not really.

Does it ultimately matter if religion X purports to condemn me to an eternal hell? Does it matter that competing religions explains eternity or the fundamental essence of Reality in different ways? ... Yes, immensely(!), to both questions.

So, how do we discern between the allegations of truth between one religion or another? Faith will not do, because faith in one path generally means rejection of another path.

What then would you say is left, if faith is insufficient?

 

[miknik5]

How can I accept it, if I haven't witnessed it?

Blessed are those who do

 

[ananda]

Blessed are those who do

The problem is: other faith-based religions claim similarly.

 

[cloudyday2]

So, how do we discern between the allegations of truth between one religion or another? Faith will not do, because faith in one path generally means rejection of another path.

What then would you say is left, if faith is insufficient?

There are different types of religions making different sorts of claims. For example, Christianity makes historical claims and it also claims to help people become more like Christ. Both those claims can be tested and potentially falsified. Buddhism claims to help people become enlightened, and that also can be tested and potentially falsified.

If we are seeking truth as opposed to self-improvement, then we shouldn't rely on our own personal experience; we need to test a large sample of people.

 

[ananda]

There are different types of religions making different sorts of claims. For example, Christianity makes historical claims and it also claims to help people become more like Christ. Both those claims can be tested and potentially falsified. Buddhism claims to help people become enlightened, and that also can be tested and potentially falsified.

If we are seeking truth as opposed to self-improvement, then we shouldn't rely on our own personal experience; we need to test a large sample of people.

Christianity teaches many things, ultimately & including eternal life - something I do not know how to test for, or observe for myself. Similarly with other faith-based religions such as Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, etc.

The Buddha in Early Buddhism stated that he ultimately taught a Path which led to only one thing - suffering and its cessation (cf MN 22, MN 63, SN 56.31, etc.) - something I can test for.

If - by practicing the Buddhist Path - I progressively experience and observe a decrease in suffering, are others really needed to verify it is so?

 

[miknik5]

The problem is: other faith-based religions claim similarly.

The problem is that none have claimed what HE has claimed

And TRUTH is HE came into the world

Which is both the verdict

And the judgement

 

[ananda]

The problem is that none have claimed what HE has claimed

And TRUTH is HE came into the world

Which is both the verdict

And the judgement

I have no way to verify that claim ...

 

[cloudyday2]

Christianity teaches many things, ultimately & including eternal life - something I do not know how to test for, or observe for myself. Similarly with other faith-based religions such as Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, etc.

The fact that these religions make some claims that are hard to falsify does not protect them from falsification with respect to other more accessible claims. For example, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all claim to be divinely inspired. I have convinced myself that they all evolved in a way that is not consistent with divine inspiration, therefore I can scratch them off my list of potentially true religions.

If - by practicing the Buddhist Path - I progressively experience and observe a decrease in suffering, are others really needed to verify it is so?

Ideally you need to study a group of people. If you take a medicine and feel better later, it doesn't mean the medicine made you feel better.

EDIT: Also if you take a medicine and it doesn't make you feel better, it doesn't mean the medicine is ineffective. Maybe you needed a higher dosage or maybe you didn't take it long enough.

 

[ananda]

The fact that these religions make some claims that are hard to falsify does not protect them from falsification with respect to other more accessible claims. For example, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all claim to be divinely inspired. I have convinced myself that they all evolved in a way that is not consistent with divine inspiration, therefore I can scratch them off my list of potentially true religions.

Ideally you need to study a group of people. If you take a medicine and feel better later, it doesn't mean the medicine made you feel better.

EDIT: Also if you take a medicine and it doesn't make you feel better, it doesn't mean the medicine is ineffective. Maybe you needed a higher dosage or maybe you didn't take it long enough.

That is true ... it may not be my practice of the Buddhist Path which helps me to feel better/suffer less. Correlation is not causation, of course. Unfortunately, even science cannot completely and absolutely prove causation without omniscience and knowledge of every possible cause.

I suppose it's up to the individual to determine what his or her standards might be; for me, I am satisfied with my practice and my perceived results

 

[miknik5]

I have no way to verify that claim ...

Not right now you don't because you base TRUTH in GOD on your lower carnal senses

You need a sensual felt experience a hit over the head/road to Damascus experience in order for your type of faith to be validated

You can't becone as a child because you believe you are wiser than a child

And because of this, the TRUTH is kept from you

It is a catch 22 situation

Unless you become as a child you can not see the kingdom of GOD and unless you see in the way that you want to see (with your physical eyes) the kingdom of GOD you can't believe


That is the prophecy of Isaiah fulfilled

"For judgement I have come...."

 

[Zoness]

It just sounds like circular reasoning to me.

 

[miknik5]

It just sounds like circular reasoning to me.

THE same HOLY SPIRIT poured out upon the disciples then is the same HOLY SPIRIT poured out upon HIS disciples today

And THE SPIRIT is TRUTH and leads us to all truth

And THE SPIRIT of GOD does not contradict the written WORD of GOD

And the written WORD of GOD does not contradict THE SPIRIT

 

[ananda]

Not right now you don't because you base TRUTH in GOD on your lower carnal senses

You need a sensual felt experience a hit over the head/road to Damascus experience in order for your type of faith to be validated

You can't becone as a child because you believe you are wiser than a child

And because of this, the TRUTH is kept from you

It is a catch 22 situation

Unless you become as a child you can not see the kingdom of GOD and unless you see in the way that you want to see (with your physical eyes) the kingdom of GOD you can't believe


That is the prophecy of Isaiah fulfilled

"For judgement I have come...."

What does it mean to "become as a child"? How does that enable someone to see your deity's kingdom?

 

[miknik5]

What does it mean to "become as a child"? How does that enable someone to see your deity's kingdom?

I don't feel like speaking impersonally about my FATHER and your FATHER

You do not see HIM as "Abba"

 

[Zoness]

THE same HOLY SPIRIT poured out upon the disciples then is the same HOLY SPIRIT poured out upon HIS disciples today

And THE SPIRIT is TRUTH and leads us to all truth

And THE SPIRIT of GOD does not contradict the written WORD of GOD

And the written WORD of GOD does not contradict THE SPIRIT

Yeah, so circular. It might work for you but its hardly a compelling argument for a skeptic.

Have a nice day.

 

[dlamberth]

You do not see HIM as "Abba"

I sure don't. That term suggest an image that is apart and separate from this Creation. That doesn't work for me.