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If Protestantism is true, why they are not united? (2)

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Alonso_Castillo, Jul 25, 2014.

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  1. MoreCoffee

    MoreCoffee Repentance works.

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    Saint Paul commended the Corinthians for keeping traditions as he haded them on to them:
    (1 Corinthians 11:2 NJB) I congratulate you for remembering me so consistently and for maintaining the traditions exactly as I passed them on to you.​
    And saint Paul urged the faithful in Thessamonica to stand form in the traditions he taught them:
    (2 Thessalonians 2:15 NJB) Stand firm, then, brothers, and keep the traditions that we taught you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.​
    And Jesus Christ handed on to the twelve apostles what he himself had received from God the Father.

    It is a commonplace to ridicule traditions that are received from the apostles but it is not what the apostles taught the faithful to do. Those who mock traditions ought to take a step back, hold their tongues, and consider from whom the traditions have come. Remember that scripture is tradition.
     
  2. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    How many Mary dogmas are enough? :confused:

    [And besides, this thread isn't about Mary]......

    http://www.christianforums.com/t7533697/#post56714947
    Cardinals Hoping for a 5th Marian Dogma

    To Declare Mary as Mother of Humanity

    The text, released last week, includes the petition that asks the Pope to proclaim Mary as "the Spiritual Mother of All Humanity, the co-redemptrix with Jesus the redeemer, mediatrix of all graces with Jesus the one mediator, and advocate with Jesus Christ on behalf of the human race.".....

    "We believe the time opportune for a solemn definition of clarification regarding the constant teaching of the Church concerning the Mother of the Redeemer and her unique cooperation in the work of Redemption, as well as her subsequent roles in the distribution of grace and intercession for the human family.".......


    .
     
  3. Restoresmysoul

    Restoresmysoul Regular Member

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    Its not so simple. What does the word "Church" mean? And as I said before, Paul doesn't teach us to be united with those who don't obey his teaching. If a church doesn't obey Paul's doctrine then Paul urges me not to fellowship with them. He teaches us not to glory in men, he teaches us to speak the same thing, he teaches us to follow him because he follows Christ. I cant follow the Pope because his followers don't seem to follow these things. Forgive me but I see RCC followers glorifying men such as the Pope, they bow to him even though Peter himself refused this practice, they even kiss his ring but I'm sure peter would not allow these things. They teach about attaining sainthood as if only some people can attain this title, but the bible says that we are all saints. They call the Pope Father even though the Lord teaches us not to call any man father, Paul may refer to himself as a father in certain translations but he would never allow men to glorify him or glory in him. RCC says that Mary intercedes for us in prayer but the bible says that the Holy Spirit does this Himself. They pray repetitious prayers even though the Lord teaches us not to do that. They have sold indulgences, they speak in Latin even though its a dead language and cannot edify its hearers anymore. I just cannot accept these things, they seem very dangerous to me. They are not just harmless traditions, in my judgment.

    Acts 10:25-26New International Version (NIV)

    25 As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. 26 But Peter made him get up. “Stand up,” he said, “I am only a man myself.”
     
  4. MoreCoffee

    MoreCoffee Repentance works.

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    In English church has a variety of meanings but since church is a translation of a Greek word in the new testament we need only look at the definition of the Greek word. Let me show it to you:
    εκκλησια

    ekklēsía; gen. ekklēsías, fem. noun from ékklētos (n.f.), called out, which is from ekkaléō (n.f.), to call out. It was a common term for a congregation of the ekklētoí (n.f.), the called people, or those called out or assembled in the public affairs of a free state, the body of free citizens called together by a herald (kḗrux [G2783]) which constituted the ekklēsía. In the NT, the word is applied to the congregation of the people of Israel (Act 7:38). On the other hand, of the two terms used in the OT, sunagōgḗ (G4864) seems to have been used to designate the people from Israel in distinction from all other nations (Act 13:43 [cf. Mat 4:23; Mat 6:2; Jas 2:2; Rev 2:9; Rev 3:9]). In Heb 10:25, however, when the gathering of Christians is referred to, it is called not sunagōgḗ, but episunagōgḗ (G1997), with the prep. epí (G1909), upon, translated "the assembling . . . together." The Christian community was designated for the first time as the ekklēsía to differentiate it from the Jewish community, sunagōgḗ (Act 2:47 [TR]). The term ekklēsía denotes the NT community of the redeemed in its twofold aspect. First, all who were called by and to Christ in the fellowship of His salvation, the church worldwide of all times, and only secondarily to an individual church (Mat 16:18; Act 2:44, Act 2:47; Act 9:31; 1Co 6:4; 1Co 12:28; 1Co 14:4-5, 1Co 14:12; Php 3:6; Col 1:18, Col 1:24). Designated as the church of God (1Co 10:32; 1Co 11:22; 1Co 15:9; Gal 1:13; 1Ti 3:5, 1Ti 3:15); the body of Christ (Eph 1:22; Col 1:18); the church in Jesus Christ (Eph 3:21); exclusively the entire church (Eph 1:22; Eph 3:10, Eph 3:21; Eph 5:23-25, Eph 5:27, Eph 5:29, Eph 5:32; Heb 12:23). Secondly, the NT churches, however, are also confined to particular places (Rom 16:5; 1Co 1:2; 1Co 16:19; 2Co 1:1; Col 4:15; 1Th 2:14; Phm 1:2); to individual local churches (Act 8:1; Act 11:22; Rom 16:1; 1Th 1:1; 2Th 1:1). Ekklēsía does not occur in the gospels of Mark, Luke, John, nor the epistles of 2 Timothy, Titus, 1 and 2 John, or Jude.

    (I) Of persons legally called out or summoned (Act 19:39, of the people); and hence also of a tumultuous assembly not necessarily legal (Act 19:32, Act 19:41). In the Jewish sense, a congregation, assembly of the people for worship, e.g., in a synagogue (Mat 18:17) or generally (Act 7:38; Heb 2:12 quoted from Psa 22:22; Sept.: Deu 18:16; 2Ch 1:3, 2Ch 1:5).

    (II) In the Christian sense, an assembly of Christians, generally (1Co 11:18, a church, the Christian church).
    (A) A particular church, e.g., in Jerusalem (Act 8:1; Act 11:22); Antioch (Act 11:26; Act 13:1); Corinth (1Co 1:2; 2Co 1:1); Asia Minor (1Co 16:19); Galatia (Gal 1:2); Thessalonica (1Th 1:1; 2Th 1:1); Cenchrea (Rom 16:1). Also, "the churches of the nations" (a.t.) means churches of Gentile Christians (Rom 16:4); the church which meets at the house of someone (Rom 16:5; 1Co 16:19; Phm 1:2); the churches of Christ (Rom 16:16); the church of God at Corinth (1Co 1:2).
    (B) The church universal (Mat 16:18; 1Co 12:28; Gal 1:13; Eph 1:22; Eph 3:10; Heb 12:23); church of God (1Co 10:32; 1Co 11:22; 1Co 15:9; 1Ti 3:15 [cf. in the Sept. the church of the Lord {Deu 23:2, 3}]).​

    (III) The word ekklēsía is nowhere used of heathen religious assemblies in Scripture. In the OT, two different words are used to denote gatherings of the chosen people or their representatives: edah (H5712) meaning congregation and qahal (H6951), assembly. In the Sept., sunagōgḗ (G4864) is the usual translation of edah while qahal is commonly rendered ekklēsía. Both qahal and ekklēsía by their derivation indicate calling or summoning to a place of meeting, but there is no foundation for the widespread notion that ekklēsía means a people or a number of individual men called out of the world or mankind. Qahal or ekklēsía is the more sacred term denoting the people in relation to Jehovah, especially in public worship. Perhaps for this very reason, the less sacred term sunagōgḗ was more commonly used by the Jews in our Lord's time, and probably influenced the first believers in adopting ekklēsía for Christian use. Sunagōgḗ, though used in the early church as a syn. for ekklēsía (Jas 2:2), quickly went out of use for a Christian assembly, except in sects which were more Jewish than Christian. Owing to the growing hostility of the Jews, it came to indicate opposition to the church (Rev 2:9; Rev 3:9). Ekklēsía, therefore, at once suggests the new people of God, the new Israel.

    (IV) The terms "the kingdom of God" and "the church" are distinguished in Scripture. The kingdom appears to be a reign rather than a realm, which the church is. These two ideas, however, are complementary, the one implying the other. Sometimes it is hardly possible to distinguish between them. It may be true that by the words "the kingdom of God," our Lord means not so much His disciples, whether individually or as a collective body, but something which they receive or a state upon which they enter. At the same time, the whole history of the growth of the idea of the kingdom led, naturally, to the belief that the kingdom of God about which Christ taught would be expressed and realized in a society. His kingdom is visibly represented in His church, and the church is the kingdom of heaven insofar as it has already come, and it prepares for the kingdom as it is to come in glory. See basileía (G932), kingdom.​
    (The Complete Word Study Dictionary)

    The church which christ established is the community (a single community) of the faithful.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2014
  5. Restoresmysoul

    Restoresmysoul Regular Member

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    I understand all that, I was only suggesting that the Church isn't a church only because people call it a Church. Please, tell me what you think of this scripture.

    Acts 10:25 As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. 26 But Peter made him get up. “Stand up,” he said, “I am only a man myself.”
     
  6. MoreCoffee

    MoreCoffee Repentance works.

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    It's part of the story of the conversion of the first gentiles after saint Peter received a vision teaching him to call no man unclean.
     
  7. Restoresmysoul

    Restoresmysoul Regular Member

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    Why doesn't the RCC follow Peters command? Peter said “Stand up,” “I am only a man myself.”

    Why does RCC bow to the Pope after Peter refused this practice? Why do they not obey Peter? Why do they also not obey the Lord Who told us not to pray in repetitious prayers? Why do they not obey the Lord Who told us not to call any man Father? How can I follow the RCC if they don't follow the Church?

    Acts 10:25-26New International Version (NIV)

    25 As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. 26 But Peter made him get up. “Stand up,” he said, “I am only a man myself.”
     
  8. MoreCoffee

    MoreCoffee Repentance works.

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    I stand while we pray in Church, kneel when we petition God in prayer in Church, and sit when we hear the old testament read and the psalms read. Why are you making this into a critique of Catholic worship?

    By the way, Catholics bow to Jesus Christ in all his various presences within the Church. We bow to Christ in the sacrament, we bow to Christ on the altar, we bow to Christ in the liturgy. I wonder if you know what is meant by in persona Christi?
     
  9. Restoresmysoul

    Restoresmysoul Regular Member

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    I would ask a question. If RCC is true why don't they follow Peters command and the other commands that I listed? Its not an unreasonable question, its relevant and should be addressed when examining the topic at hand.
     
  10. MoreCoffee

    MoreCoffee Repentance works.

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    What command? There was no command in the two verses you asked me to explain to you.
     
  11. Restoresmysoul

    Restoresmysoul Regular Member

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    The command is clear. Here it is: “Stand up,” he said, “I am only a man myself.”

    You can argue that Peters words above are not a command but regardless its clearly a tradition that RCC is not following.

    But in my mind this is a command. Everything the apostles teach is a command that helps us follow Christ if we obey them. A command is given by a leader and those who want to follow obey all that they teach, as much as possible anyway.
     
  12. MoreCoffee

    MoreCoffee Repentance works.

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    That was a request because the man fell at his feet in reverence as soon as saint Peter arrived at the man's house; that was not called for, it was giving to the man, Peter, reverence that was not called for. You used the NIV in your post, a more careful translation might use "did obeisance to him" or "worshipped him" though "bowed to him" is not inherently inaccurate it is somewhat loose as a translation. Your posts are treating any act of bowing as if it were an act of worship and that is clearly not true. If a man bows to the pope he would likely be doing so because the pope is the head of state for the Vatican City or is the man is a Catholic as a sign of honour given to the pope as the bishop of the city of Rome. It is not an act of worship. Now, answer a question for me, please. It is evident that your post is not presenting detailed information about Catholic liturgy or worship so is that because you have not done detailed research on Catholic liturgy and worship?
     
  13. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Reminds me of Daniel and John when the fell down to the Messenger.

    Reve 22:
    8 And I, John, the one hearing and beholding these things.
    And when I hear and behold, I fall to worship before the feet of the Messenger, the one showing to me these-things.
    9 And He is saying to me "be thou seeing no!
    A fellow bond-servant of thee I am and of the brothers of thee, the prophets and of the ones keeping the words of the scroll, this.
    To the God worship thou!"

    Daniel 10:
    5 I lifted up my eyes and looked, and behold, a Man clothed in linen, with a belt of fine gold from Uphaz around his waist.
    11 He said, "Daniel, you who are highly esteemed, consider carefully the words I am about to speak to you, and stand up, for I have now been sent to you."
    And when he said this to me, I stood up trembling.


     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 14, 2014
  14. By Faith Alone

    By Faith Alone Junior Member

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    I HAVE stepped back and far enough to see there is a difference in INSPIRED tradition and that which a man pulls out of his hat. I KNOW you are smarter than that.

    Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, ...after the tradition of men....after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

    What, pray tell, is THAT tradition? THAT is the tradition under which you have placed yourself.

    I do not know why some folks continue to pull the wool over others' eyes.

    WAIT!! YES!! I DO know but will keep it to myself.
     
  15. Restoresmysoul

    Restoresmysoul Regular Member

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    I believe that i'm being lead by the spirit of truth. And I'm not merely picking one scripture and misusing it. Concerning your other point, the NIV was only convenient at the time, I didn't gain this understanding by using the NIV. I build this obvious conclusion on things that Jesus, Paul and Peter all teach, things that I mentioned earlier.
     
  16. MoreCoffee

    MoreCoffee Repentance works.

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    Obviously the remainder of the phrase was not emphasised in your posts. It is "of men" the phrase is "the traditions of men" rather than the traditions handed down from the apostles. But this is tiresome, let's cease this line of discussion since it is off topic anyway. I am returning to my questions.

    If the denominations and communions and independent groups under the broad umbrella of Protestantism cannot decide an agreed set of doctrines that are essential for salvation then doctrinal unity within Protestantism would be impossible, right?

    It is possible that the divisions we see are a sign of the apostasy about which Jesus Christ warned?
     
  17. MoreCoffee

    MoreCoffee Repentance works.

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    "Led by the spirit of truth" you say? It seems more like your posts are about something either not researched or poorly researched. One must know what the liturgy is and what its actions mean before offering a critique of it. IN your next post let's see evidence that the liturgy and the actions in it are known and understood before your post criticises.
     
  18. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    You brought that up in an earlier post.
    Does Catholicism have a view on that concerning the endtimes?
    and if so, can you point me to it?



    .
     
  19. Restoresmysoul

    Restoresmysoul Regular Member

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    Just because it doesn't agree with you or RCC doctrine doesn't mean that I don't understand it. I don't research RCC doctrine but I do ask questions and you failed to give me any reasonable answer.
     
  20. MoreCoffee

    MoreCoffee Repentance works.

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    How can a reasonable answer be given when your questions are based on a fallacy? I gave you a good answer.
     
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