• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

If Protestantism is true, why they are not united? (2)

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Alonso_Castillo, Jul 25, 2014.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Standing Up

    Standing Up On and on

    +2,536
    Christian
    Private
    Our views are different on the canonization process. I would agree with Athanasius who said it was handed down as divine. IOW, we didn't make it that way. It came that way.
     
  2. Standing Up

    Standing Up On and on

    +2,536
    Christian
    Private
    There is the point of RC magisterium so declaring doctrine based on Scripture or Tradition. They believe they have the right.

    For EO and P up to #7, it was Councils that thought they had a right.

    But your point is there's some "stream" of apostolic information they define as Tradition. I'm trying to understand why they think that. 2 Thes 2:15 is the blank check. Somewhere, at some time, someone thought they could use something besides scripture to determine doctrine.
     
  3. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

    +19,475
    Anglican
    Married
    Huh? Are we still discussing Tradition?

    Are you thinking that "Holy Tradition" AKA "Sacred Tradition" is a function only of the "Magisterium" or the Ecumenical Council?

    I'm saying that they CLAIM a stream of extra-Biblical information that they deem to be divine revelation.

    They made it up! :doh:

    It's the theory that justifies making up any doctrine, that's all.

    Ah, yes. That is the verse that's used, but they might as well have chosen almost any other verse and proclaimed that it was the basis. The verse says nothing even remotely related to the concept that is "Tradition" and the word itself doesn't even appear in that verse. It's purely artificial to consider this to be a proof text.

    Nevertheless, we're on the right track to approach Tradition on its own terms, and not as a function of the Councils or Apostolic Succession.
     
  4. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

    +27,718
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    US-Libertarian
    What do you or others think of this verse?

    http://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/4-6.htm

    NET)
    1Corinthians 4:6
    I have applied these things to myself and Apollos because of you, brothers and sisters, so that through us you may learn "not to go beyond what is written," so that none of you will be puffed up in favor of the one against the other.

    LLOJ)
    1 Corinthians 4:6
    These-things yet brethren! I after-figure into myself and Apollos because-of ye.
    That in us ye may be learning the no above that which hath been Written/gegraptai <1125> (5769), *to think* that no one over the one ye may be being puffed up against the other/different.

    ..........."The true reading is merely, not above the things which have been written, as though the words were a sort of proverb, like Ne quid nimis or Milton's "The rule of not too much" (&#956;&#951;&#948;&#8050;&#957; &#7940;&#947;&#945;&#957;). The word "to think" is omitted in the best manuscripts. The phrase, "which have been written," is of very uncertain meaning. It may refer generally to "the scriptural rule" that all boasting is wrong (Jeremiah 9:23), or to the humble estimate of teachers which he has just been writing down for them."....................

    http://www.christianforums.com/t7367166/#post51676697
    1 Corin 4:6 No above what is written



    .
     
  5. Standing Up

    Standing Up On and on

    +2,536
    Christian
    Private
    Good point. If we tie those two verses together (2 THes 2:15 and 1 Cor 4:6), then what do we have? Whatever oral tradition Paul thought abide-worthy, would have been written down. Almost a test to see who departs into man-made traditions (regardless of what they may call them).
     
  6. MoreCoffee

    MoreCoffee Repentance works.

    +2,421
    Catholic
    Private
    If the denominations and communions and independent groups under the broad umbrella of Protestantism cannot decide an agreed set of doctrines that are essential for salvation then doctrinal unity within Protestantism would be impossible, right?
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2014
  7. Restoresmysoul

    Restoresmysoul Regular Member

    +161
    Christian
    In Relationship
    That's an interesting way to read that scripture, I haven't read it that way before. The NKJV words it a little differently. I wonder, which version of that scripture is more correct?
     
  8. Restoresmysoul

    Restoresmysoul Regular Member

    +161
    Christian
    In Relationship
    Please don't take this the wrong way, I'm not making a comparison between anyone. I'm only suggesting that the premise which you are using isn't necessarily a good one. Consider that the scribes (who Jesus rebuked) gave us the Old Testament but we wouldn't trust their teaching of doctrine. Preserving a text it isn't the same as teaching it. And its also true that it doesn't matter how many times a person reads the bible, consider the Pharisees,they read it many times. It only matters how we understand and apply what is written
     
  9. Restoresmysoul

    Restoresmysoul Regular Member

    +161
    Christian
    In Relationship
    The bible seems to teach us that the world would grow more and more evil and that the Church would grow further and further into apostasy. Unity is not necessarily going to happen if this is correct. I myself don't listen to many teachers, I try to follow the things that The Lord, Paul, Peter and James teach us. I think they are the best teachers among men. I don't reject the teaching of other teachers but I know that its fallible and that it wouldn't be wise to be blind followers of teachers in these last days.
     
  10. By Faith Alone

    By Faith Alone Junior Member

    +67
    Christian
    Married
    Your catholic church amounts to...ZERO..in the scheme of things. Get over it.

    http://www.christianforums.com/t7834134-20/

    Post 200, please.
     
  11. MoreCoffee

    MoreCoffee Repentance works.

    +2,421
    Catholic
    Private
    It is possible that the divisions we see are a sign of the apostasy about which Jesus Christ warned.
     
  12. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

    +27,718
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    US-Libertarian
    I don't think the apostasy is concerning leaving the RCC, EO, or Protestant chruches, but leaving deserting Christ.

    Apostasy has been happening since the time of Christ and the Apostles.

    http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=48456361#post48456361
    What is the Apostasy in 2 Thess 2?

    Acts 21:21
    "They were instructed yet about the apostasy/apo-stasian <646> thou are teaching from Moses, according to the gentiles, all Judeans saying 'no to be circumcising them the offsprings, no yet to the customs to be walking'". [2 Thess 2:3]
    2 Thess 2:3
    No any ye should be deluding according to no yet one manner/way, that if-ever no may be coming the apostasy/apo-stasia <646> first.
    And may be being un-covered the Man of the Sin, the Son of the destruction.

    .
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 14, 2014
  13. By Faith Alone

    By Faith Alone Junior Member

    +67
    Christian
    Married
    One problem with the Pharisees is that they taught the "tradition of the elders". When Israel came out of Babylon they brought Babylonian ideas with them and made God's Word none-effect with their Talmud, which was extra-Biblical. Kinda like Catholicism with their "catechisms", Didache, Council declarations, etc.
     
  14. By Faith Alone

    By Faith Alone Junior Member

    +67
    Christian
    Married
    The umbrella of the cc is the largest umbrella, but still full of HOLES.
     
  15. Restoresmysoul

    Restoresmysoul Regular Member

    +161
    Christian
    In Relationship
    I have trouble understanding this unity thing that people keep trying to establish. Part of me thinks that unity is good but another part of me remembers that Paul teaches us to not fellowship with those who don't walk in the truth. And what is truth? I must conclude that if anything contradicts the things that the New Testament writers teach us, or if it goes beyond what they teach then it is not truth or at the least its an unnecessary doctrine the will only cause quarrels, and that in itself seems to be a sign, that those who hold onto such things lack discernment. Im unsure what to think about this, I could go into a few particulars, things that seem to be examples of apostasy, but im afraid that it will only cause quarrels and would not do any good anyway. So I just keep calm, stay quiet and set my affections on heaven.
     
  16. Restoresmysoul

    Restoresmysoul Regular Member

    +161
    Christian
    In Relationship
    I agree completely.
     
  17. Restoresmysoul

    Restoresmysoul Regular Member

    +161
    Christian
    In Relationship
    Yes that is a good point. The Pharisees held onto tradition even when it contradicted Gods commands and Christ rebuked them for it. The tradition that Paul refers in his letters, the traditions that he teaches his readers to follow, are the traditions that he and the other Apostles have established at the very beginning, and those traditions cannot be taught today because the apostles are not here and we don't have them in the flesh to serve as examples for us. The only thing that we have is their teaching and their examples which are recorded only in their letters to the Churches and found in the Words of the Lord. The traditions we have today, which are not recorded in scripture, are often fallible traditions of men, they are unnecessary and cause quarrels.
     
  18. MoreCoffee

    MoreCoffee Repentance works.

    +2,421
    Catholic
    Private
    Unity is a characteristic of the church, Jesus established one church rather than dozens or hundreds or thousands of churches. Christians desire unity because it is what Christ calls the faithful to. Saint Paul wrote:
    Ephesians 4:7-14 NJB
    (7) On each one of us God's favour has been bestowed in whatever way Christ allotted it.
    (8) That is why it says: He went up to the heights, took captives, he gave gifts to humanity.
    (9) When it says, 'he went up', it must mean that he had gone down to the deepest levels of the earth.
    (10) The one who went down is none other than the one who went up above all the heavens to fill all things.
    (11) And to some, his 'gift' was that they should be apostles; to some prophets; to some, evangelists; to some, pastors and teachers;
    (12) to knit God's holy people together for the work of service to build up the Body of Christ,
    (13) until we all reach unity in faith and knowledge of the Son of God and form the perfect Man, fully mature with the fullness of Christ himself.
    (14) Then we shall no longer be children, or tossed one way and another, and carried hither and thither by every new gust of teaching, at the mercy of all the tricks people play and their unscrupulousness in deliberate deception.​
     
  19. Harbingr

    Harbingr Newbie

    214
    +2
    Catholic
    Private
    The traditions of the Church are harmless and not demanded.

    However, the veneration of Mary for example is not merely tradition, it's true blue Church Dogma, and I think non-Catholics tend to mix the two up sometimes.
     
  20. By Faith Alone

    By Faith Alone Junior Member

    +67
    Christian
    Married
    Creating a fog around the Lord with traditions are...HARMLESS?? There is NO excuse.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...