• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.

Featured If Peter wasn't the first pope, who was?

Discussion in 'Christian History' started by Unofficial Reverand Alex, Sep 14, 2018.

  1. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

    +6,024
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    Your absolutely ignoring why Christ said that in the first place. Your taking a response to a revelation from God, and misinterpreting it...

    Simon Peter answered, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God."

    That is the foundation, that is the teaching upon which the gates of hell cannot prevail... not a man. Foundation is the teaching of who Christ is, taught us by revelation from God, brought forward throughout history through the testimony of the Apostles, to our time... that is our foundation. Not Peter the Apostle, the man, but the revelation of God, given to God's people.

    That revelation is our foundation, with Christ as our head through the testimony of the Holy Spirit, the seal of all believers. Brought forward in time via the Apostles, who gave us their testimony, of what they witnessed and did through the power of God...

    This testimony cannot be drowned out or replaced by any declaration of a man taking the place of Christ in His church. As Jesus said, the gates of hell can never prevail. The truth cannot be hidden, or locked away...
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2020
  2. Victor in Christ

    Victor in Christ Jehovah Tsidkenu

    851
    +313
    United Kingdom
    Christian
    Single
    When your talking about the disciples who would depart, they couldn't believe Christ was the spiritual Messiah who would deliver them from this earth. They thought Christ was a physical messiah to deliver them from their Roman oppressors. This was the thinking of the Jews, that they must always have a physical David, Joshua, etc to deliver them from a pagan nation.

    Christ had his chosen disciples who were gathered in the upper room discourse when the Holy spirit came upon them. Christ's chosen disciples knew that his Father's kingdom didn't belong in this world, but in the new heavens and the new Earth.

    God Bless
     
  3. Root of Jesse

    Root of Jesse Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord Supporter

    +3,391
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Constitution
    Well, no.

    Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi and he asked his disciples,

    Jesus went to Caesarea Philippi and asked His disciples a question. Now, the way it is phrased, it almost sounds as though Jesus went to Caesarea Philippi EXPRESSLY to ask the question which He asked. But even more, to make the specific statement which He made.

    I love to read Biblical commentaries because, I personally, have never been outside the U.S. But Biblical commentaries can tell you so much about the context in which the Scriptures were written. This one, I learned from reading one of Scott Hahn's books. Caesarea Philippi is a very special place.

    In the time of Jesus, a river flowed through this area and went into a cave, a hole in a huge rock. It was the belief of the Romans that this cave was the entrance into hell. On the top of this rock, the Romans had constructed a temple, in our terms, a church to one of their gods.

    And this sets up the rest of this Gospel.

    "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?"

    Jesus asked, "who do the people of Israel say that I am?"

    They replied, "Some say John the Baptist, others Elijah,still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets."

    They answered what they had overheard the people saying. Some thought that Jesus was John the Baptist. We recently saw that Herod thought that Jesus was the reincarnation of John the Baptist. The disciples said that other people thought He was the second coming of Elijah, one of the greatest Old Covenant prophets.

    He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"

    But Jesus was just warming up. He puts them on the spot with the next question. "Who DO YOU, my students whom I have been guiding for at least two years now. Who do you say that I am?"

    Simon Peter said in reply,"You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

    And this is why St. Peter is one of my most beloved Saints. There is no indication in this Gospel that he hesitated even one little bit. "You are the Son of God who is to come into the world!"

    Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah.For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.

    And Jesus says to him, "you are right. But it isn't because you are so brilliant. You can only know this if you are given the inspiration from my Father in heaven."

    And so I say to you, you are Peter,and upon this rock I will build my Church,

    "And now, since you have correctly revealed who I am, I will tell you who you are. You are Rock and on this Rock I will build my Church."

    Right here, think back on where they are standing. As Jesus says these words, I envision that His arms sweep out to point towards that huge rock in the horizon and the temple that sits on top. But that is a Pagan church on top of that rock and that is a place where idolatry and orgies regularly take place. Therefore, hell has prevailed upon that church. Therefore, Jesus continues:

    and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

    I will give you the keys to the Kingdom of heaven.Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven;and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

    Jesus then gives St. Peter the keys to the Kingdom of heaven. Essentially saying that St. Peter will have the power and authority to save people's souls.
     
  4. Root of Jesse

    Root of Jesse Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord Supporter

    +3,391
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Constitution
    Well, that was the subject of the parable of the sower. Sometimes the seeds landed on rocky ground, withered and died. There were also those who rejected Him after he told them that, in order to have life, they had to eat His flesh and drink His blood.
    Those were the apostles.
     
  5. Valletta

    Valletta Active Member

    620
    +156
    United States
    Catholic
    Married
    When Jesus renamed Simon as Rock and gave Rock (Peter) the keys of the kingdom, Jesus used words strikingly paralleling Isaiah 22. In Isaiah, the king gives the keys of the kingdom to his prime minister as a sign of authority. Jesus gave the keys of the kingdom to Peter alone, not to any other Apostle.
     
  6. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

    +28,343
    Anglican
    Married
    That argument is a standard among Catholics, it seems, but the comparison does not work.

    For one thing, it is NOT what you said about "keys" being given. There is no "striking" similarity. In one case, it's keys and in the other it's key (in the singular).

    For another, the OT conferral was about a political or administrative position, not at all like the religious position that the Pope is believed to occupy as supreme head of the visible church of Christ on Earth.

    And for still another--a minor point, I agree--there was no such position as "prime minister" until the 18th century AD.

    All that aside, if we were to agree that Peter was the first Pope, you would agree that the concept includes the idea of Apostolic Succession, of an unbroken line of bishops of Rome, the Popes, from then to the present. That is certainly the view taken by the Roman Catholic Church. Yet the man considered to be Peter's successor by the RCC, Linus, was not made a bishop by Peter or anyone else and was not even in Rome at the time of Peter's passing.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2020
  7. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

    +2,845
    Christian
    Married
    Is there proof, one way or the other, that Peter was the actual first Pope?
     
  8. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

    +28,343
    Anglican
    Married
    No, there is only the interpretation placed on Jesus' words by later bishops of Rome (and of course also their supporters).

    There is evidence of the Diocese of Rome being influential in Church affairs, and its bishop along with that, but there are a number of reasons for that situation, not including anything about such a position as that of a "Pope."
     
  9. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

    +799
    Switzerland
    Non-Denom
    Married
    If this is true, why wasn't Peter the first authority in the first church? Why didn't Peter write anything but a few letters in the New Testament? Why is Paul featured so prominently but Peter less than John or Paul? How come no one in the early church recognized Peter as the only one who had this authority and no one else? How come they recognized others more often as having authority? History does not bear out this theology.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
  10. Valletta

    Valletta Active Member

    620
    +156
    United States
    Catholic
    Married
    Isaiah 22:20-22: In that day I will call my servant Eli'kim the son of Hilki'ah, and I will clothe him with your robe, and will bind your girdle on him, and will commit your authority to his hand; and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. And I will place on his shoulder the key of the House of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.
    Matthew 16:18-19: And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
     
  11. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

    +28,343
    Anglican
    Married
    Thanks for noticing my post, Valletta. I'll be happy to clarify anything in it that you didn't follow, as well as respond to anything that you may want to present as a counter-argument.
     
  12. Valletta

    Valletta Active Member

    620
    +156
    United States
    Catholic
    Married
    Catholics believe the Bible is the Word of God. The Bible says that Jesus renamed Simon as Rock and gave Rock (Peter) the keys to the kingdom.
     
  13. Valletta

    Valletta Active Member

    620
    +156
    United States
    Catholic
    Married
    Eliakim was one of many ministers, but was chosen by the king to be the prime minister when the office became vacant. The foreshadowed what was to come, Peter took on not only administration duties but
    as the prime minister of Jesus, according to the words of Jesus, became a shepherd to the people.
     
  14. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

    +2,845
    Christian
    Married
    But that doesn't make Peter the first Pope. Also, shortly after renamed Simon as Rock he also called him Satan. Matthew 16:23, "But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but man’s". So, was Satan the first Pope?
     
  15. prodromos

    prodromos Senior Veteran Supporter

    +7,749
    Australia
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    Peter was a "type" of the Apostles, and by extension, the bishops. There was no Apostle over the Apostles just as there is no Bishop of Bishops. Every bishop who confesses Christ as the Son of the Living God is "Rock".

    Just as each person of the Holy Trinity is fully God, each bishop surrounded by his flock is fully the Church. They are not part of the Church, they are the Church. It is exactly how each person of the Holy Trinity is not part of God, but rather each is fully God.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2020
  16. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

    +799
    Switzerland
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I repeat, history does NOT show that Peter alone had the keys or that the church was built on Peter or that anyone accorded him more honor or authority than John, James or Paul.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
  17. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

    +799
    Switzerland
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Do the Catholics also believe that the words of “subsequent Popes” also fall into the category of Satan speaking through them as well as he did through Peter?
     
  18. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

    +799
    Switzerland
    Non-Denom
    Married
    He gave the keys to many. But let me ask you as a Catholic believer, what are these keys since only Popes have them in your view?
     
  19. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

    +799
    Switzerland
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Except he was not the prime minister of the early church, James was. Later Paul and John were significant. Peter was not recognized as prime minister by anyone living when he did.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
  20. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

    +3,301
    Non-Denom
    Single
    Agree with your post. What puzzles me more is that Peter was only an apostle to the Jews. Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles. Rome was a Gentile city and Peter did not have any authority over Gentile Christians.

    Peter travelled up to Antioch but was publicly rebuked by Paul.
    So obviously, Paul did not view Peter as a pope. In fact, Paul accused Peter of attempting to make the Gentiles live like the Jews. There is no doubt that Paul saw Peter as, fallen from grace.

    How Peter becomes a pope is beyond my understanding.
     
Loading...