If Perchance Catholicism Is Mistaken

[WebersHome]

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My eldest brother (for convenience sake, call him Larry) was ordained to the priesthood in 1965 and remained so for 53 years prior to passing away at the age of 78 in May of 2018.

Larry graduated from the Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome. He taught at the University of San Diego and has served in parishes in San Diego, Mexico, Portland, the Tohono O'odham Indian Reservation, and Huntington Beach. Larry served as the Director of Pastoral Ministry and the first Rector of the Conventual Church of Our Lady of the Angels at the Franciscan Renewal Center, Scottsdale, Arizona.

In 1973, he served at University of San Diego as an Assistant Professor of Religious Studies in the College of Arts and Sciences. Larry then served as the University Chaplain and Director of Campus Ministry from September 1974 until June 1984.

Larry entered the Franciscan Order to become a Friar in 1987 after serving as a priest of the Diocese of San Diego for 22 years. During his semi retirement years, Larry, he was a priest at the Mission San Luis Rey in Oceanside, California.

Supposing Rome's version of Christianity is mistaken? (This is only a hypothetical question; I'm not alleging Rome is mistaken.) The ramifications of that would be too awful to contemplate. It would mean that my deceased brother is right now, this very moment, in Hell regardless of the quality and the extent of his devotion to The Church. It would also mean that my brother was a minister of darkness rather than light; thus everyone he influenced was led down a path leading directly to the lake of brimstone depicted at Rev 20:11-15 where they would be facing a mode of death akin to a foundry worker falling into a kettle of molten iron.

I can only imagine the crushing, unspeakable dismay that my brother would undergo were it to turn out that all the while he sincerely believed himself serving Christ's best interests, he was only serving himself.
_

 

[Sketcher]

Depends on how mistaken. If Jack Chick and the people like him are right, then yes.

If people like myself and my ex-Catholic dad are right, he likely believed the Gospel, and if so, your brother is in Heaven. Despite being wrong about key things.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Supposing Rome's version of Christianity is mistaken? (This is only a hypothetical question; I'm not alleging Rome is mistaken.) The ramifications of that would be too awful to contemplate. It would mean that my deceased brother is right now, this very moment, in Hell regardless of the quality and the extent of his devotion to The Church

I don't see how a life of faithfulness to and teaching of the gospel could lead your brother into eternal punishment.

If the Catholic Church is mistaken then everybody else is mistaken too. If Catholics go to damnation for what we believe, so does the rest of the Christian world.

 

[dzheremi]

Hi Webershome.

First, before anything else, may the Lord receive the soul of your brother Larry in the place of the righteous and the just.

I am a bit confused by this post. Particularly the statements made in the fifth paragraph. Why would Rome's version of Christianity being incorrect mean that your brother's soul is in any way jeopardized, let alone that he personally is condemned for having served in the 'wrong' Christian tradition? I was Roman Catholic myself before converting to Orthodoxy, so while I do believe that Rome's version of Christianity is incorrect in several key respects, I would never think that this necessarily reflects upon the souls of those who profess it and work within it, working out their salvation with fear and trembling. Is it not up to God who and what He will accept and who and what He will not?

I would not worry for Larry on this account, but instead simply pray. While I do believe that pietism (the idea that adherence to doctrine should be eschewed in favor of personal piety) is very wrong, I would also think its opposite is wrong. Neither doctrine nor communion are 'cages' for God.

 

[chevyontheriver]

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My eldest brother (for convenience sake, call him Larry) was ordained to the priesthood in 1965 and remained so for 53 years prior to passing away at the age of 78 in May of 2018.

Larry graduated from the Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome. He taught at the University of San Diego and has served in parishes in San Diego, Mexico, Portland, the Tohono O'odham Indian Reservation, and Huntington Beach. Larry served as the Director of Pastoral Ministry and the first Rector of the Conventual Church of Our Lady of the Angels at the Franciscan Renewal Center, Scottsdale, Arizona.

In 1973, he served at University of San Diego as an Assistant Professor of Religious Studies in the College of Arts and Sciences. Larry then served as the University Chaplain and Director of Campus Ministry from September 1974 until June 1984.

Larry entered the Franciscan Order to become a Friar in 1987 after serving as a priest of the Diocese of San Diego for 22 years. During his semi retirement years, Larry, he was a priest at the Mission San Luis Rey in Oceanside, California.

Supposing Rome's version of Christianity is mistaken? (This is only a hypothetical question; I'm not alleging Rome is mistaken.) The ramifications of that would be too awful to contemplate. It would mean that my deceased brother is right now, this very moment, in Hell regardless of the quality and the extent of his devotion to The Church. It would also mean that my brother was a minister of darkness rather than light; thus everyone he influenced was led down a path leading directly to the lake of brimstone depicted at Rev 20:11-15 where they would be facing a mode of death akin to a foundry worker falling into a kettle of molten iron.

I can only imagine the crushing, unspeakable dismay that my brother would undergo were it to turn out that all the while he sincerely believed himself serving Christ's best interests, he was only serving himself.
_

What is likely is that your brother continues to pray for you, and may be praying for you in uninterrupted earnest from his heavenly reward. The prayers of the righteous avail much.

 

[ChicanaRose]

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Supposing Rome's version of Christianity is mistaken? (This is only a hypothetical question; I'm not alleging Rome is mistaken.) The ramifications of that would be too awful to contemplate. It would mean that my deceased brother is right now, this very moment, in Hell regardless of the quality and the extent of his devotion to The Church. It would also mean that my brother was a minister of darkness rather than light; thus everyone he influenced was led down a path leading directly to the lake of brimstone depicted at Rev 20:11-15 where they would be facing a mode of death akin to a foundry worker falling into a kettle of molten iron.
_

First of all, I'm sorry for your loss. Jesus guaranteed eternal life for those who believe in Him (John 3:16). And that verse in included is both the Catholic and Protestant Bibles.

 

[com7fy8]

I, of course, did not know him personally. So, I do not know how he was, and I do not know what he taught or what he emphasized and gave his main devotion.

It seems ones can get pretty busy with scholarship and proving their religion right, but have they started with the basics of how the Bible says to walk with Jesus?

"If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me." (in Luke 9:23)

And our Apostle Paul speaks of us who "first trusted in Christ" (in Ephesians 1:12). Ones have come to trust in certain religious people and their talk and practices, but have they come to trust Jesus Himself? This is very personal, in us >

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)

This is very intimate and personal, to be joined to Jesus so a person is "one spirit with Him". And this is in God's own love "in our hearts" >

"Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us." (Romans 5:5)

And we need God's correction so we are submissive to Him in His own peace >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

This is included in our basic Christian calling > "in one body", our Apostle Paul does say.

And there is the scripture about how to relate in God's love >

"without complaining and disputing" > Philippians 2:13-16.

"submitting to one another in the fear of God." (Ephesians 5:21)

"swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath; for the wrath of man does not produce the righteousness of God." (in James 1:19-20)

"forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you." (in Ephesians 4:31-32)

So, did he emphasize how Jesus wants us to forgive "even as God", like our Apostle Paul does clearly say. Jesus says if we do not forgive, we are not forgiven. Plus, our forgiving is to be "even as God". So, hopefully he gave sound teaching about how to forgive "even as God"; we do this forgiving for God, not only making gestures of forgiveness so we can make sure we ourselves are forgiven.

In case he has not taught about this, I think I should offer some of what I find is what God's word means by forgiving "even as God" >

"Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you." (Ephesians 4:31-32)

So, I think we can see how our Heavenly Father has kindly and tenderly and so readily and generously forgiven us, and this is how He expects us to lovingly forgive.

So, in all the time you knew him, did he talk with you about these things which are basic Christianity?? And even if he did not say anything about these things, was he an example demonstrating such submission to God in His peace and so lovingly and caringly forgiving any and all people?

A good teacher demonstrates. Jesus spent personal time in real life with people, so He could talk with them about how they were living and so they could feed on His example. He was not distant, to say the least, but Jesus left Heaven itself, in order to reach us and share with us and save us.

So, a teacher of Jesus, I see, will demonstrate God's word in real life. You are not an expert on God's word unless you are an example So, how obviously did he help you to walk with God and relate the way God's word says to relate? Make sure you do this with people, whether or not he did, and whether or not you know what is really true about him. It is not only, then, about if his group's beliefs and practices are correct > these can decoy our attention away from how God's word says for us to personally submit to Him in His peace and how He has us relating in His love.

 

[WebersHome]

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I would never think that this necessarily reflects upon the souls of those who profess it and work within it, working out their salvation with fear and trembling.

If perchance Rome's interpretation of Phil 2:12 is mistaken; then none of my deceased brother's 53 years of work as a Priest/Friar will count towards earning him a spot in heaven.
_

 

[WebersHome]

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I'm sorry for your loss.

Thank you. I appreciate your regard.
_

 

[dzheremi]

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If perchance Rome's interpretation of Phil 2:12 is mistaken; then none of my deceased brother's 53 years of work as a Priest and a Friar will count towards earning him a spot in heaven.

I don't know you or your brother, but I would guess that if he spent 53 years as a priest, he learned well enough that his service in the Roman Catholic Church isn't even about him earning a spot in heaven, but about serving and praising God in the capacity which God blessed him with. I mean, I don't want to presume anything, but I've known my fair share of Roman Catholic priests from my time in the RCC, and none of them ever expressed anything like the idea that they were priests in order to earn their spot in heaven. I would welcome correction from any current Catholic if I'm wrong, though I don't think that it will be necessary on something this basic. It is a common charge of Protestants that Catholics believe in "earning" their salvation, but I do not think it is the case, and I was certainly never taught that when I was in that Church (and I find it hard to believe that they would change such a basic belief in the 10 years since I last stepped inside a Roman Catholic church).

Again, I don't think there is any need to worry because of any of this. God accepts who and what He accepts, and that is not dependent on the RCC being right about anything.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

.
My eldest brother (for convenience sake, call him Larry) was ordained to the priesthood in 1965 and remained so for 53 years prior to passing away at the age of 78 in May of 2018.

Larry graduated from the Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome. He taught at the University of San Diego and has served in parishes in San Diego, Mexico, Portland, the Tohono O'odham Indian Reservation, and Huntington Beach. Larry served as the Director of Pastoral Ministry and the first Rector of the Conventual Church of Our Lady of the Angels at the Franciscan Renewal Center, Scottsdale, Arizona.

In 1973, he served at University of San Diego as an Assistant Professor of Religious Studies in the College of Arts and Sciences. Larry then served as the University Chaplain and Director of Campus Ministry from September 1974 until June 1984.

Larry entered the Franciscan Order to become a Friar in 1987 after serving as a priest of the Diocese of San Diego for 22 years. During his semi retirement years, Larry, he was a priest at the Mission San Luis Rey in Oceanside, California.

Supposing Rome's version of Christianity is mistaken? (This is only a hypothetical question; I'm not alleging Rome is mistaken.) The ramifications of that would be too awful to contemplate. It would mean that my deceased brother is right now, this very moment, in Hell regardless of the quality and the extent of his devotion to The Church. It would also mean that my brother was a minister of darkness rather than light; thus everyone he influenced was led down a path leading directly to the lake of brimstone depicted at Rev 20:11-15 where they would be facing a mode of death akin to a foundry worker falling into a kettle of molten iron.

I can only imagine the crushing, unspeakable dismay that my brother would undergo were it to turn out that all the while he sincerely believed himself serving Christ's best interests, he was only serving himself.
_

I have known Catholics who have a personal relationship with Jesus and have repented of their sins. So, you may be surprised to see him again in heaven.

Witnessing tip: When I leave someone after talking with them about anything, I will say, "I hope to see you in heaven someday." Often they will ask what I mean. I explain if they have repented of their past mistakes, offences, sins or whatever one wants to call it and have a personal relationship with Jesus they will be in Heaven. Usually they say Oh Ok. But, often when I see them in the future they have come to Christ or have many questions.

 

[WebersHome]

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I sincerely believe that Jesus Christ is a man of integrity who would never knowingly mislead people. In point of fact, I'm convinced that that everything he taught originated with God, whom I also sincerely believe to be a person of integrity who would never knowingly mislead people.

● John 3:34 . . For he is sent by God. He speaks God's words, for God's Spirit is upon him without measure or limit

● John 8:26 . .He that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of Him.

● John 8:28 . . I do nothing on my own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught me.

● John 12:49 . . I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

Jesus, speaking for God, instructed a Samarian woman that she could obtain a living water merely by asking him for it. I've done that; but I don't know whether my deceased brother ever did.

Jesus, yet speaking for God, instructed his countrymen that whoever believes in him would be given to drink of the Spirit within the very core of their being if all they did was approach him for it. I've done that too; but again, I don't know if my deceased brother ever did.

So if John 4:10-14 is true and reliable, and if John 7:37-39 is true and reliable; then I have successfully obtained the living water, and I have also successfully obtained the Spirit within the very core of my being.

The living water and the Spirit, are essential components of my baptism into Jesus' body.

● 1Cor 12:13 . .We were all baptized by one Spirit into one body-- whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free --and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

The awful irony of the standard Christian baptism is that not everyone who undergoes it will make it to safety when they pass on; and that's because they failed to obtain the Spirit and the living water about which Jesus spoke in John 4:10-14 and John 7:37-39.

NOTE: It's risky to depend upon the standard Christian baptism for obtaining the Spirit and the living water; no, play it safe and do as I have done: speak up for them as Jesus instructed and get the water and the Spirit locked in.

● John 6:37 . . Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and I will not reject anyone who comes to me

● Rom 10:13 . . Everyone who calls on the name of The Lord will be saved.
_

 

[chevyontheriver]

Jesus, speaking for God, instructed a Samarian woman that she could obtain a living water merely by asking him for it. I've done that; but I don't know whether my deceased brother ever did.

Jesus, yet speaking for God, instructed his countrymen that whoever believes in him would be given to drink of the Spirit within the very core of their being if all they did was approach him for it. I've done that too; but again, I don't know if my deceased brother ever did.
_

Was your brother a decent priest or a snake eyed sexual abuser dipping his hands into the collection plate when he wasn't at the casino spending his loot or too drunk to see straight? I'm not trying to insult you or insult him. Just asking if as far as priests go was he a moral failure and wreck of a priest or not.

If he was not a moral failure and wreck of a priest it is likely that when he said mass and his morning and evening prayers, every day, his prayers would have been those of calling on the name of the Lord. Not every priest will be saved. But those who say the mass prayerfully with any humility will be. I don't know your brother. It's not in my pay grade to judge his soul. But the prayers he was required to pray every day, if he said them with humility, would have brought him to salvation. Without that humility, well ....?

 

[WebersHome]

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According to Jesus' statements at John 3:3-8, it's necessary for people to undergo a birth by water and by the Spirit in order to enter and/or see the kingdom of God.

Well; if perchance my deceased brother somehow failed to obtain the water Jesus spoke about to the Samarian women in John 4:10-14, and the Spirit that he spoke of to his countrymen in John 7:37-39, then I would have to conclude that my brother didn't make it to safety when he passed away even after 53 years of life on earth as a Priest/Friar because to my knowledge, there are no exceptions to the rule.

FYI: Newcomers to the thread curious about my deceased brother can find some information about him back at the very beginning in post No.1

Information related to the water and the Spirit can be found in post No.12
_

 

[prodromos]

Why didn't you ask your brother while he was alive?
I'm also surprised that you aren't asking the question, "If perchance, you are mistaken?"

 

[WebersHome]

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Why didn't you ask your brother while he was alive?

Larry and I didn't grow up together. We had the same dad but not the same mothers. I was taken to visit Larry just once when we were both young boys. I did not see him again until I was seventeen when he and our dad gave me a send-off to the Army in August of 1961.

From thence, our lives took very different directions. Larry went on to become a Priest/Friar and I went on to become a welder.

Now the thing is this: Larry entered the priesthood under false pretenses. He never revealed his mother's divorce from our dad, nor did he ever reveal that he had siblings. Plus his mom was connected. She managed to get Larry's birth record altered so that her new husband appeared to be Larry's real father.

Larry was ambitious. He wanted to go far with the Catholic Church and figured his chances would be better if Rome didn't know too much about him. Long story short; it was Larry's wish that I distance myself to avoid the risk of exposure. Larry dropped off the radar, and I lost contact with him for the next 54 years when we Googled him in 2015. In point of fact, were it not for the internet, Larry and I probably never would've found each other again.

Because of all the secrecy; I was unable to speak with my brother about religion till just three years prior to his death via email. However, when I did; Larry, without saying why, went dark and stopped communicating with me; and I only found out about his illness and his death just recently when we Googled him once again.

My one lasting regret is that Larry didn't contact me about his illness and his impending death so we could've at least said our good-byes.
_

 

[GoingByzantine]

That sounds really painful WebersHome. Prayers to you as you work through this matter.

 

[anna ~ grace]

There have been and are now, many, many Catholic Christians who love and follow and live for Christ.

There are Assyrian, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Protestant Christians who are doing the same, as best they can, where they are. There are devout and holy men and women all over the Christian map.

God is love, friend. And to be a priest is a huge grace. Some take that grace for granted and abuse the authority they have. Others humble themselves, and become very holy. God be with you, and with him.

 

[Aussie Pete]

.
My eldest brother (for convenience sake, call him Larry) was ordained to the priesthood in 1965 and remained so for 53 years prior to passing away at the age of 78 in May of 2018.

Larry graduated from the Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome. He taught at the University of San Diego and has served in parishes in San Diego, Mexico, Portland, the Tohono O'odham Indian Reservation, and Huntington Beach. Larry served as the Director of Pastoral Ministry and the first Rector of the Conventual Church of Our Lady of the Angels at the Franciscan Renewal Center, Scottsdale, Arizona.

In 1973, he served at University of San Diego as an Assistant Professor of Religious Studies in the College of Arts and Sciences. Larry then served as the University Chaplain and Director of Campus Ministry from September 1974 until June 1984.

Larry entered the Franciscan Order to become a Friar in 1987 after serving as a priest of the Diocese of San Diego for 22 years. During his semi retirement years, Larry, he was a priest at the Mission San Luis Rey in Oceanside, California.

Supposing Rome's version of Christianity is mistaken? (This is only a hypothetical question; I'm not alleging Rome is mistaken.) The ramifications of that would be too awful to contemplate. It would mean that my deceased brother is right now, this very moment, in Hell regardless of the quality and the extent of his devotion to The Church. It would also mean that my brother was a minister of darkness rather than light; thus everyone he influenced was led down a path leading directly to the lake of brimstone depicted at Rev 20:11-15 where they would be facing a mode of death akin to a foundry worker falling into a kettle of molten iron.

I can only imagine the crushing, unspeakable dismay that my brother would undergo were it to turn out that all the while he sincerely believed himself serving Christ's best interests, he was only serving himself.
_

God has only one initial judgement. Are you alive or dead? "He who has the Son has the Life". If the individual is born again, then they qualify for the Kingdom of God. I am grieved by the diluting of gospel truth in modern Christianity. There will be many saying on that day, "Lord, Lord....." but they will be rejected. I do not know about your brother. I'm 68. I've met Catholics who would shame the most ardent Pentecostal and Pentecostals who know nothing of mercy and grace. And vice versa. God does not look at the label. The Bible tells us that our devotion should be to Christ (2 Corinthians 11:3). We are exhorted to make our calling and election sure, to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith. I am certain that God is love and entirely just.

 

[Albion]

My reaction is similar to that expressed by others. If Catholicism is wrong in certain ways, that doesn't mean Larry served Satan or anything of the sort.

And given the great diversity of beliefs among the Christian denominations, most of them have to be "wrong." But Larry was nevertheless a disciple of Christ, from what you wrote.