If people do not have free will

dogs4thewin

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Then, honest question how can God tell you to do something and you ignore it?

For example, suppose I feel God via the Spirit telling me to witness to a particular person, and I choose to either completely ignore the person walk right pass them OR I may come to them, but do not address ANYTHING having to do with the faith or I feel God telling me to tell them a particular thing and I choose not to do so? Am I not free to despite the Holy Spirit to ignore it?

I am fairly sure that Calvinists do things that God tells them ( personally) meaning not just through the Bible not to do and/or NOT do something God is leading them to do.
 

Don Maurer

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First, in Calvinist, or reformed theology, we do not disagree with free will in the way you describe it above. Anecdotal illustrations abound in the scripture of the elect disobeying our Lord. You mentioned evangelism, I would think of Jonah who was to give a message to the Ninevites and felt.

The problem here is that the theological discussion on "free will" between Calvinists and non-Calvinists does not relate to the Christian life, but it relates to the nature of man before salvation. Such doctrines as "original sin" are central to the concept of free will. Also, Calvinists use a term "total depravity."

The scripture shows concepts like this in passages like John 6:44.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.
Notice the first phrase.... "No man can come to me"
This speaks of our compete inability to believe.

Faith is the work of God in man. That can be seen by the 2nd phrase. The only exception to the inability of man to come to God is when God acts in drawing man. the third phrase speaks of salvation. Of those drawn by God, they all are raised up on the last day to eternal life.

Salvation is not something where we meet God have way, or something where we take the first step and God does the rest. No, God took all the steps.

In your comments, you demonstrate that a believer has free will. I guess my answer to your query is "Fine."
 
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dogs4thewin

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First, in Calvinist, or reformed theology, we do not disagree with free will in the way you describe it above. Anecdotal illustrations abound in the scripture of the elect disobeying our Lord. You mentioned evangelism, I would think of Jonah who was to give a message to the Ninevites and felt.

The problem here is that the theological discussion on "free will" between Calvinists and non-Calvinists does not relate to the Christian life, but it relates to the nature of man before salvation. Such doctrines as "original sin" are central to the concept of free will. Also, Calvinists use a term "total depravity."

The scripture shows concepts like this in passages like John 6:44.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.
Notice the first phrase.... "No man can come to me"
This speaks of our compete inability to believe.

Faith is the work of God in man. That can be seen by the 2nd phrase. The only exception to the inability of man to come to God is when God acts in drawing man. the third phrase speaks of salvation. Of those drawn by God, they all are raised up on the last day to eternal life.

Salvation is not something where we meet God have way, or something where we take the first step and God does the rest. No, God took all the steps.

In your comments, you demonstrate that a believer has free will. I guess my answer to your query is "Fine."
Still though, even before salvation I cannot believe that people cannot resist grace; because you can feel that pull and have NO reaction to it.
 
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BryanW92

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Then, honest question how can God tell you to do something and you ignore it?

For example, suppose I feel God via the Spirit telling me to witness to a particular person, and I choose to either completely ignore the person walk right pass them OR I may come to them, but do not address ANYTHING having to do with the faith or I feel God telling me to tell them a particular thing and I choose not to do so? Am I not free to despite the Holy Spirit to ignore it?

I am fairly sure that Calvinists do things that God tells them ( personally) meaning not just through the Bible not to do and/or NOT do something God is leading them to do.

Being led by God to perform a task and not doing it is not the same thing as resisting grace. God does not irresistibly force us to witness to a particular person or give a certain amount of money or even to take a mission trip. He urges us to do things, but gives us the freedom to do it, not do it, or to do it in a different way.

Resisting grace is different. He gives that and it changes us. You can't resist that any more than you can resist puberty by continuing to play children's games into adulthood. You can even pretend that it didn't happen, but it did whether you admit it or not. The change is still there.

When I was given faith by God, I changed. The change was profound enough that I did not even try to resist (and I wasn't a Calvinist or Arminian then, so I didn't know about free will or predestination.)
 
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dogs4thewin

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Being led by God to perform a task and not doing it is not the same thing as resisting grace. God does not irresistibly force us to witness to a particular person or give a certain amount of money or even to take a mission trip. He urges us to do things, but gives us the freedom to do it, not do it, or to do it in a different way.

Resisting grace is different. He gives that and it changes us. You can't resist that any more than you can resist puberty by continuing to play children's games into adulthood. You can even pretend that it didn't happen, but it did whether you admit it or not. The change is still there.

When I was given faith by God, I changed. The change was profound enough that I did not even try to resist (and I wasn't a Calvinist or Arminian then, so I didn't know about free will or predestination.)
How is it any different? There are MANY people who hear the Gospel over and over and still choose to do nothing even though it is the SAME message.
 
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BryanW92

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How is it any different? There are MANY people who hear the Gospel over and over and still choose to do nothing even though it is the SAME message.

Right. I grew up in the church and never really bought into the gospel story. I walked away when I was 16 when I had the choice to sleep in on Sunday. Just hearing the story does not give you faith. Nothing gives you faith unless God gives it to you because we, in our sinful state, cannot understand God. To the Natural Man, God is just a comic book hero...or perhaps a comic book villain, with Science and Reason as the heroes.
 
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Don Maurer

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Still though, even before salvation I cannot believe that people cannot resist grace; because you can feel that pull and have NO reaction to it.

Of course people can resist grace. I do not understand why you would point that out. The scriptures is filled with illustrations of people resisting grace, and that is a natural part of reformed theology. We call this "total depravity." In fact the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit.
1Co 2:14 Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged.

I mentioned John 6:44 that says "no man can come to me." This does not mean that no one ever comes. We come when the Father draws. Please read John 6:44. When the Father draws, the person comes without fail. The Fathers drawing never fails. It is not some weak pleading that maybe we might come, not it is a powerful change where he powerfully and irresistably draws, and then raises us up on the last day (because we are saved).

In the 2nd part of your statement you mentioned the "pull." It is obvious that when the Father draws (John 6:44) that people do come. In fact they never fail to come. Thats why the end of the text says that God "raised them up on the last day."
 
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dogs4thewin

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Of course people can resist grace. I do not understand why you would point that out. The scriptures is filled with illustrations of people resisting grace, and that is a natural part of reformed theology. We call this "total depravity." In fact the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit.
1Co 2:14 Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged.

I mentioned John 6:44 that says "no man can come to me." This does not mean that no one ever comes. We come when the Father draws. Please read John 6:44. When the Father draws, the person comes without fail. The Fathers drawing never fails. It is not some weak pleading that maybe we might come, not it is a powerful change where he powerfully and irresistably draws, and then raises us up on the last day (because we are saved).

In the 2nd part of your statement you mentioned the "pull." It is obvious that when the Father draws (John 6:44) that people do come. In fact they never fail to come. Thats why the end of the text says that God "raised them up on the last day."
so the moment I am called I answer?
 
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BryanW92

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so the moment I am called I answer?

Not necessarily. Remember that the "irresistible" part means that eventually, God will get you. It doesn't mean that you can't try to resist. But, as we learned in Star Trek, "resistance is futile".
 
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Then, honest question how can God tell you to do something and you ignore it?

For example, suppose I feel God via the Spirit telling me to witness to a particular person, and I choose to either completely ignore the person walk right pass them OR I may come to them, but do not address ANYTHING having to do with the faith or I feel God telling me to tell them a particular thing and I choose not to do so? Am I not free to despite the Holy Spirit to ignore it?

I am fairly sure that Calvinists do things that God tells them ( personally) meaning not just through the Bible not to do and/or NOT do something God is leading them to do.

If it helps, Calvinists believe the will of man has a kind of freedom which is limited and or restricted by his nature, in other words, a man cannot choose contrary to his nature. So, in this sense, sinners freely sin, without any force or compulsion, it is in their nature, it is natural to the carnal, to the flesh, it is in agreement with in harmony with a sinful nature.

The will in bondage to sin is broken free from the chains of sin in the new birth, or regeneration. This also creates more complication, because the Saints of God, though regenerated and being sanctified, are not immune to sin, or falling into temptations. While we are Saints, we are yet sinners while living in the flesh. With these two at work in our "members", with daily spiritual warfare, though Christ has ultimately won the war for us, we may loose some battles in-between, but thanks be to God who is greater than our heart.

To answer your question specifically, ONLY the regenerate in Christ, have the freedom of will to choose toward anything pleasing to God, like giving in to the Spirit. The unregenerate sinner, in bondage to sin, can only resist, until or unless GOD initiates a spiritual rebirth, a spiritual awakening.
 
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dogs4thewin

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If it helps, Calvinists believe the will of man has a kind of freedom which is limited and or restricted by his nature, in other words, a man cannot choose contrary to his nature. So, in this sense, sinners freely sin, without any force or compulsion, it is in their nature, it is natural to the carnal, to the flesh, it is in agreement with in harmony with a sinful nature.

The will in bondage to sin is broken free from the chains of sin in the new birth, or regeneration. This also creates more complication, because the Saints of God, though regenerated and being sanctified, are not immune to sin, or falling into temptations. While we are Saints, we are yet sinners while living in the flesh. With these two at work in our "members", with daily spiritual warfare, though Christ has ultimately won the war for us, we may loose some battles in-between, but thanks be to God who is greater than our heart.

To answer your question specifically, ONLY the regenerate in Christ, have the freedom of will to choose toward anything pleasing to God, like giving in to the Spirit. The unregenerate sinner, in bondage to sin, can only resist, until or unless GOD initiates a spiritual rebirth, a spiritual awakening.
so there are certain sins that even Non-Christians know to be wrong and no not just the CLEAR like murder, rape ECT. I am also talking about things like drinking ( too much) smoking cigarettes or otherwise.) I am sure there are many a non-Christian that realizes that that is wrong WANTS to quit, but cannot. Likewise, there are Christians who feel the same way.
 
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so there are certain sins that even Non-Christians know to be wrong and no not just the CLEAR like murder, rape ECT. I am also talking about things like drinking ( too much) smoking cigarettes or otherwise.) I am sure there are many a non-Christian that realizes that that is wrong WANTS to quit, but cannot. Likewise, there are Christians who feel the same way.

A Christian may feel the same way, but that does not mean it IS that way. At the same time, does not mean a Christian will not struggle with some sins more than others, and those specific sins may differ from Christian to Christian.

Even if the non-Christian (b) can quit sin x, does not mean they can please (y) or satisfy a Holy God (A).

Hebrews 11:6 "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

If our justification depended on the deeds of the flesh, nobody would be justified. Our justification rests on the finished work of Christ, the blood of Christ, nothing less or more!

Something I meant to mention in an earlier response, Calvinists believe in BOTH Monergism AND synergism. The difference is when, where, to whom they apply. I'm using the terms to make it easier on me, I'm lazy with explaining sorry.
 
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dogs4thewin

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dogs4thewin, why don't you define the difference between the terms "will," and the term "free will."
Oh you mean like free verse what people do? In other words that some things are just in people's nature?
 
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Don Maurer

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Oh you mean like free verse what people do? In other words that some things are just in people's nature?

I think I should withdraw the question. It is going to lead to a debate and this is not the place for debate threads.
 
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I think I should withdraw the question. It is going to lead to a debate and this is not the place for debate threads.
I have a thread that is about God granting faith in the debate forum so should I make another one?
 
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