If people are excommunicated for

[Catholic Wife]

having an abortion and/or helping someone to procure an abortion, why aren't people excommunicated for plain ol' "I don't want you around and have decided to chop you to bits" murder? (or for just your "garden variety" murder?)

Or can you?

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

To underscore how intrinsically evil abortion is.

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

"how intrinsically evil abortion is."

There are levels of intrinsically evil ?

How come parents who participate in InVirto fertilisation aren't excommunicated.

And don't say they are, because even if they are its not spoken of at all, not like abortiion is, which destroying embreyos in a dish is anyway.

No, the Catholic Chruch has a thing about abortion.

Whether it is justified or not they are fixated on it.

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

...No, the Catholic Chruch has a thing about abortion.

Whether it is justified or not they are fixated on it.

Thanks be to God someone is.

 

[Reader Antonius]

Thanks be to God someone is.

Amen and Amen!

 

[YourBrotherInChrist]

The idea behind having the penalty of excommunication attached to an act is to give the person who is about to commit that act one last reason to reconsider what they are about to do. If someone is seriously considering committing murder and they aren't concerned about getting caught and spending the rest of their life in jail, then the threat of excommunication isn't likely to change their mind. Whereas if a young women is about to pretend to herself that her unborn baby is just a "mass of tissue", then the penalty of excommunication might just get her to wake up and see the truth.

In general, there are two kinds of penalties in canon law (see canon 1312): medicinal penalties and expiatory penalties. Medicinal penalties are designed to guide a person along the right path; expiatory penalties are designed to punish, in the name of justice, those people who have taken the wrong path. Excommunication is a medicinal penalty.

 

[MikeK]

How come parents who participate in InVirto fertilisation aren't excommunicated.

You know why. It's because the death of tiny babies isn't the repulsive thing, it's the deaths of tiny babies that came from filthy people having filthy sex that's the real issue. Invitro isn't condemned with the same vigor, even though each decision to try invitro results in more dead babies than each abortion does. I tend to think it's because in vitro couples aren't typically white-trashy, they aren't having filthy dirty fun backalley sex, and they're usually, you know, white. It's hard to condemn people who look like well adjusted grown-ups like most of us.

 

[YourBrotherInChrist]

And don't say they are, because even if they are its not spoken of at all, not like abortiion is, which destroying embreyos in a dish is anyway.

The Vatican issued an authentic interpretation of the canon law that excommunicates those who procure a completed abortion:

The doubt: Whether abortion, mentioned in c. 1398, is to be understood only as the ejection of an immature fetus, or also as the killing of the fetus in whatever way it may be procured or at whatever time from the moment of conception.
​

The response: Negative to the first part; affirmative to the second.​

 

[MikeK]

Great news, now we need to start picketing in vitro clinics and calling the people murderers! Let's not forget to tell them that if they're excommunicated if they're catholics - as are, of course, any people who help them commit their heinous act. Doctors, nurses, receptionists, so on and so forth.

 

[Miss Shelby]

having an abortion and/or helping someone to procure an abortion, why aren't people excommunicated for plain ol' "I don't want you around and have decided to chop you to bits" murder? (or for just your "garden variety" murder?)

Or can you?

any mortal sin automatically cuts a person off from grace supposedly. so technically, you commit mortal sin you're excomm'd til confession. with abortion supposedly you supposed to go through the Bishop, but I am sure lots of people have confessed that right to their priests and received absolution.

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

Great news, now we need to start picketing in vitro clinics and calling the people murderers! Let's not forget to tell them that if they're excommunicated if they're catholics - as are, of course, any people who help them commit their heinous act. Doctors, nurses, receptionists, so on and so forth.

Pretty soon some half crazed priest should be writing that if we only shot a few reproductive specialist abortionist doctors we could save an entire generation.

(A preist actually holds this positon about doctors who perform abortions, maybe we could get him hopped up about in virto if we tried. )

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

You know why. It's because the death of tiny babies isn't the repulsive thing, it's the deaths of tiny babies that came from filthy people having filthy sex that's the real issue. Invitro isn't condemned with the same vigor, even though each decision to try invitro results in more dead babies than each abortion does. I tend to think it's because in vitro couples aren't typically white-trashy, they aren't having filthy dirty fun backalley sex, and they're usually, you know, white. It's hard to condemn people who look like well adjusted grown-ups like most of us.

Well, yeah, I know.

I just want to know who else has the reproductive fortitutde to admit it.

 

[Rhamiel]

well there is not a big mess of people saying murder is ok, there are not debates over if a woman has the right to murder her child after it is born.
I think if people treated abortion like every other type of murder, it would be treated as any other mortal sin

the most dangerous sin is the one people try to say is not really a sin

 

[colleen]

Great news, now we need to start picketing in vitro clinics and calling the people murderers! Let's not forget to tell them that if they're excommunicated if they're catholics - as are, of course, any people who help them commit their heinous act. Doctors, nurses, receptionists, so on and so forth.

Just want to say that I protested outside a PP in San Francisco and marched in the prolife rally there, and not once did I here someone call a woman a murder. We offered prayer, counseled women, let them know they had an actual choice, etc. On the other hand I heard people on the pro abortion side of the rally yelling for Satan to eat our children.

 

[colleen]

And in vitro that envolves the destruction of embryos would be considered an abortion already.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

I think we need to clarify excommunication and mortal sin.

Excommunication is when it does harm to the Church... well something like that. Let me find the Catechism.


**EDIT**

1463 Certain particularly grave sins incur excommunication, the most severe ecclesiastical penalty, which impedes the reception of the sacraments and the exercise of certain ecclesiastical acts, and for which absolution consequently cannot be granted, according to canon law, except by the Pope, the bishop of the place or priests authorized by them.68 In danger of death any priest, even if deprived of faculties for hearing confessions, can absolve from every sin and excommunication.69

 

[Called2Grace]

To underscore how intrinsically evil abortion is.

And murdering someone else isn't intrinsically evil? Ahhh yes, it's ok for me to murder someone who is a terrorist, but not an unborn baby...

 

[Rhamiel]

murder is evil

 

[MikeK]

And in vitro that envolves the destruction of embryos would be considered an abortion already.

Agreed. But have you ever marched or protested outside a fertility clinic that didn't do abortions, but did do in-vitro? Have you ever even heard of such a demonstration? I honestly have not.

Just want to say that I protested outside a PP in San Francisco and marched in the prolife rally there, and not once did I here someone call a woman a murder.

Oh, I didn't mean to imply that they were called "murderer" in person by you or yours Colleen, I think you're a smart enough person and enough of a big picture person to realise that such would likely be counter-productive. How many times have you seen those who obtain or perform abortions refered to as murderers in this forum though? (again, not by you) I don't think it's okay to say "well yeah, but the pro-lifers don't call them that to their face."

 

[Rhamiel]

Oh, I didn't mean to imply that they were called "murderer" in person by you or yours Colleen, I think you're a smart enough person and enough of a big picture person to realise that such would likely be counter-productive. How many times have you seen those who obtain or perform abortions refered to as murderers in this forum though? (again, not by you) I don't think it's okay to say "well yeah, but the pro-lifers don't call them that to their face."

call a spade a spade
if you murder a person then you are in fact a murderer