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Featured If penal substitution is true, why do I have to ask for forgiveness?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by zoidar, Aug 12, 2019.

  1. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Because the Bible tells us we access Grace through faith.

    Your argument is not really against PSA it’s actually against Atonement in general.
     
  2. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sin. Jesus provided the payment for sin by the offering of Himself on our behalf. But I believe this payment for sin is provisional. Jesus took away the sins of the whole world, but it must be provisional because we have to go through Jesus in order to obtain that forgiveness personally.

    Hebrews 10:26 says if we willfully sin after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins.

    1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light as He is in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. ​

    Here we see an instance in Scripture of Christ's sacrifice not being applied and an instance of Christ's sacrifice being applied.

    So appears sin is still in existence and not taken away. So the sin that Jesus paid for must have been on a provisional basis. The sins of the world being taken away was done on a provisional basis. The check was made for the world's sin debt, but we have to cash that check and pay off our debt personally.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2019
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  3. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    And see James 2:18.
     
  4. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Jason, Christ was the only one to walk this earth without sin. We still have these mortal bodies and the flesh wars against the Spirit. So we will sin unfortunately even if we are not like Caligula.

    You seem to equate that with sinning with impunity and an excuse to sin. It’s not. It’s just a fact we have not been perfected and that won’t happen until the perishable is replaced with the imperishable. Even though we are redeemed and sealed we still have bodies of flesh which are perishing the outer man, but our inner man is being renewed day by day.

    We live and walk in the Spirit and are told to be filled with the Spirit. We are to live holy and sober lives. Those be the facts and consistent teachings of the NT.

    Nowhere, I mean nowhere in the NT is there any hint if we lose our salvation each time we kick our dog or get angry. We are told to confess, love and forgive. As we should as we are to have the mind of Christ.

    And if we are in Christ we are a new creation. The old is gone for the new.

    Jesus said His disciples will bear much fruit. If you are looking for a litmus test, Jesus just gave us one.
     
  5. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    I see you are making the same misunderstanding.

    Unless once again your point is Jesus did not fully atone for us. That God’s Grace is only partially sufficient?
     
  6. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Last edited: Aug 13, 2019
  7. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I think atonement must either explain something that has happened with us or outside us, or both (2 corinthians 5:17-19). When we are saved we are atoned with God. It may also explain something that happened before we are saved. It may refer to the victory Jesus won over our sin. It doesn't have to refer to a punishment being paid, does it?
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2019
  8. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Actually, Christ's sinless life proves my position that we must overcome grievous sin in this life as being true, and it disproves a "we will always struggle with sin and yet, we are still saved type belief." For 1 Corinthians 2:16 that says, "we have the mind of Christ." If we truly have the mind of Christ, we will not justify sin in any way on any level (even in saying that we will struggle with sin always in this life and yet still remained saved while doing so).

    If I am understanding you correctly: By this sentence above here it appears that you are not being consistent in your belief here, friend. You are now admitting that a believer will always sin, and yet no doubt they are saved. How is that not turning God's grace into a license for immorality? Before you said a believer will not justify sin, or turn God's grace into a license for immorality, etc.

    Caligula implied that he was divine like the gods (during his time). Nowhere am I claiming that we can be God. Such a thing is wrong. There is only one God and it is the triune GOD (i.e. the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one - 1 John 5:7).

    Just because God does a miracle in a person's life does not mean that the person is claiming to be God. That is what overcoming grievous sin is all about. The miraculous working of God in our lives. I believe that Belief Alone Proponents, or Eternal Security Proponents either think God's hands are tied in some way to help a believer to overcome sin in this life or that God is unwilling to help them overcome sin. But why would a holy God want us to remain in our sin in this life? Can God agree with sin? Surely not. Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil (1 John 3:8). This would be the works of the devil within a believer's life. For Romans 13:14 says put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ and do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. We are told by Paul in 2 Corinthians 7:1 to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. Do you believe such a verse plainly in what it says? I cannot see how you do because your belief will not allow for it. You must change 2 Corinthians 7:1 to fit your belief here. Jesus says he that sins is a slave to sin (John 8:34). Jesus said this to the Pharisees in a negative way.

    Nothing is said in 2 Corinthians 4:16 of how we will struggle with grievous sin. That is an assumption on your part that is not in the text. Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts. How does Galatians 5:24 work in your belief? Admitting that one will always sin (even if we say that we will always struggle in fighting against sin is still an admittance to doing evil or wrong doing as a matter of fact). If a person said that they will always struggle with wanting to kill people that is not normal. If a man told his wife that he cannot help but to commit adultery on her, that is not normal. If an employee told his company that he could not help but to lie to them in some way, that is not normal. Jesus came to set the captives free.

    For there is nothing that can transform or changes lives more than Jesus Christ; That is why God's people preach the good news of Jesus Christ so as to be saved by Him. For Jesus has fixed up broken homes (or families). Jesus has drawn the alcoholic away from the bottle. Jesus has helped the gambler to put down his cards and walk away from the game. Jesus has helped the drug addict from the power of the needle. Jesus has helped the harlot from being a slave to sexual sin and money. For Jesus Christ changes lives. Jesus changed my life and He continues to change lives today (Making them new creations in His image).

    "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
    (2 Corinthians 5:17).

    I believe that a believer really cannot live a holy life if they say they will always struggle with sin. Struggling or battling with sin in the fact that they admit defeat to sin is not living a holy life. It's an oxymoron. One is either living holy, or one is justifying sin in some way and not living holy.

    What do you think happened in the Garden of Eden?
    Did they not die spiritually the day they disobeyed God's command?
    Satan's lie to Eve was that she was not going to die if she disobeyed God's command.

    Jesus says,
    "That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matthew 5:22).

    "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15).

    "For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous." (1 John 3:11-12).

    Yes, 1 John 1:9 says we are to confess, but 1 John 2:1 says for us to "sin not." It appears your belief is not consistent with John's saying in 1 John 2:1 because you believe that a believer will not "sin not."

    Which is not consistent with saying we will always sin in this life or that we will always battle with sin. Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15). But you do not believe you will always keep His commandments because you think a believer will always break them in some way over the course of their whole life in some way in the fact that they will always struggle and battle against sin while they are alive. Jesus says if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven (Matthew 6:15). This is conditional. This is not "believe in the finished work of Christ and you are saved." This is: "if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." (Matthew 6:15). It means what it plainly says. A believer must forgive in order to be forgiven (saved).

    One cannot have the mind of Christ in a sin and still be saved type belief.
    Jesus never justified sin. Only a belief that overcomes sin is truly the mind of Christ.

    In our old life we would battle with sin sometimes, too. I don't see the major difference between a believer's old life and the one you describe for a believer. You say a believer will always struggle with sin. How is that a new creation and the old is gone for the new?

    "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." (Romans 6:6).

    The old man is crucified that we should NOT SERVE SIN. That is why the old man is crucified. But you say that the believer will always struggle with sin in this life. Meaning, they will always serve sin in this life in some way.

    Not at all. Matthew 7:23, Jesus told those believers who did works in His name to depart from Him because they also worked iniquity (or sin), too. Some Eternal Security Proponents have suggested that these are not believers in Matthew 7:23. But Jesus said they did works in His name. Some Eternal Security Proponents told me that these are not believers because Jesus said He never knew them. But 1 John 2:4 says that the requirement for knowing the Lord is to keep His commandments (See 1 John 2:3-4); Also, Judas was a disciple, and appeared to be a believer or follower of Jesus. But he clearly was not saved in the end.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2019
  9. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    What do you think "the ministry of reconciliation" is?
     
  10. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    A Universal Salvationist can make the same claim in the fact that you have to add faith to the equation in order to be saved. That you had to do something in order to be saved like adding "faith."

    My point with quoting James 2:18 was that James says he will show you his faith by his works. This means that faith and works are never separate. Works will always be there. Works will always spring up from a true faith or trust in Christ. Jesus says we will know a tree by its fruit. These are good works and not a mixture of good and evil works. Even unbelievers have a mixture of good and evil works. We have to be holy and separate from the world.

    "And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness."
    (1 John 5:19).
     
  11. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    How can you or anyone pay any debt that has been 100% forgiven?

    Atonement is not something magically happening in the back ground, you cannot experience being crucified with Christ (part of the atonement process) if you do not understand Christ died because you sinned and to help you (provide a way for you be fairly/justly/lovingly disciplined for your personal rebellious disobedience against God). Going through your disciplining with Christ only helps us build an even stronger relationship with Christ.
     
  12. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Someone that goes out with the message that people should be reconconciled to God?

    2 cor 5:20
    We are ambassadors therefore on behalf of Christ, as though God were entreating by us: we beseech [you] on behalf of Christ, be ye reconciled to God.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2019
  13. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    I didn't add faith. That's actually in the Scriptures. We are saved by Grace through faith.
     
  14. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I know the Bible says that. My point is that a Universalist can make the claim that you are adding something to grace (Which is a non sequitur). Your point is that we take away from grace by adding works of faith to the equation. But a true faith is always attached with works of faith (James 2:18). Faith and works of faith go together and they cannot be separate from each other. Works of faith is holy living. For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).
     
  15. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth

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    Put it this way... You have stole a mans horse.. Punishment is buying the man 1000 horses or hang.

    You stand at the front of the court. Found guilty and sentenced.

    1/ You cannot do this so you must hang.

    2/ A man you do not know, offers to buy the other man 1000 horses and pay your debt If you admit that you are guilty and will stop stealing horses...and ask him to do it.

    That's it.. That's all he asks and he will pay your dept and you are free to walk.

    3/ You refuse. OR You accept.

    4/ The judge does not say...well this guy has paid your debt so you can go.. The man is there and WILL pay your debt IF you admit your guilt and ask him to pay the dept.


    There you have it...

    You are guilty.....

    Pardon is available but you must accept it, accept the giver of the pardon... accept that you cannot do anything to save yourself.
     
  16. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Thanks for the story! It does sound more like Jesus offers paying the dept, than allready has paid your dept.
     
  17. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth

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    Sorry, my analogy does have some flaws. Did it not, at least, explain it a little for you?

    I agree. Christ paid my debt long before I was born... all the while, my sins nailed Him to the cross.
     
  18. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I have been thinking about it today. Sure I understand the principle. One reason why I might consider PS is because it gives me something firm to hold on to when I struggle with faith. It's been of comfort in the past. Right now I just leave it open. I know Jesus died for my sins, do I need to know exactly how? I just trust in his mercy, and walk with him. God bless!
     
  19. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth

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    Sorry what is PS?
     
  20. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Penal substitution
     
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