• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.

Featured If penal substitution is true, why do I have to ask for forgiveness?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by zoidar, Aug 12, 2019.

  1. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

    +30,720
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    I agree. No one suggested such license.

    We demonstrate our love for Christ by obeying Him.
     
  2. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

    +30,720
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Are you going to offer an answer to my question before introducing another “what if” idea?
     
  3. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +5,365
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Do you believe a Christian is saved even when they lie, and or look upon a woman in lust?
     
  4. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +5,365
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I am not into guessing games that are really vague. You have to be more specific as to what you are talking about. Please provide some kind of Scripture passage or verse. I am not going to try and prove your belief for you.
     
  5. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +5,365
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    But you really did not explain the verses I initially brought forth that refutes the idea that we are saved by solely by the finished work of Christ. Are you not going to address those verses (Which was before your question)?
     
  6. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

    +30,720
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Do you mean someone who is Justified by Christ and set apart (sanctified) sins Jesus takes back the Justification and eternal promise He already gave?

    No I don’t. I also don’t believe this motivates one to sin at will. If it does it is evidence of a reprobate heart.

    We are to live and walk in the Spirit and confess our sins before a Holy God. He saved us to be His workmanship in Christ for good works.

    This is why I asked what happened with David before he repented (Psalm51)

    Notice what he does say in his prayer:

    12Restore to me the joy of Your salvation
    And sustain me with a willing spirit.
     
  7. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

    +30,720
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    It might be advisable to actually understand the entire account of the grave sins of David and what transpired.

    Unfortunately, David did not immediately repent. God sent the prophet Nathan to convict David of his sin.

    2 Samuel 12: NASB

    1Then the LORD sent Nathan to David. And he came to him and said,
    “There were two men in one city, the one rich and the other poor.

    2“The rich man had a great many flocks and herds.

    3“But the poor man had nothing except one little ewe lamb
    Which he bought and nourished;
    And it grew up together with him and his children.
    It would eat of his bread and drink of his cup and lie in his bosom,
    And was like a daughter to him.

    4“Now a traveler came to the rich man,
    And he was unwilling to take from his own flock or his own herd,
    To prepare for the wayfarer who had come to him;
    Rather he took the poor man’s ewe lamb and prepared it for the man who had come to him.”

    5Then David’s anger burned greatly against the man, and he said to Nathan, “As the LORD lives, surely the man who has done this deserves to die. 6“He must make restitution for the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing and had no compassion.”

    7Nathan then said to David, “You are the man! Thus says the LORD God of Israel, ‘It is I who anointed you king over Israel and it is I who delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8‘I also gave you your master’s house and your master’s wives into your care, and I gave you the house of Israel and Judah; and if that had beentoo little, I would have added to you many more things like these! 9‘Why have you despised the word of the LORD by doing evil in His sight? You have struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword, have taken his wife to be your wife, and have killed him with the sword of the sons of Ammon. 10‘Now therefore, the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised Me and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife.’ 11“Thus says the LORD, ‘Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own household; I will even take your wives before your eyes and give them to your companion, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight. 12‘Indeed you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, and under the sun.’” 13Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” And Nathan said to David, “The LORD also has taken away your sin; you shall not die. 14“However, because by this deed you have given occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born to you shall surely die.” 15So Nathan went to his house.
     
  8. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

    +865
    Sweden
    Christian
    Private
    I have heard this before. But a check needs to be applied like you say, how can a paid penalty be needed to be applied? To me it seems if a penalty is paid you go free, no matter what you choose to do.

    Ok... If the penalty of previous sins are paid, but not future sins. Then of course it's a different matter. But that's not really PS, or is it?
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2019
  9. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

    +865
    Sweden
    Christian
    Private
    I would like someone to tell a story of someone being sentenced for a crime, having the penalty paid, and then needed to put faith in it, repent or something alike to be set free. That would logically explain penal substitution.
     
  10. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

    +865
    Sweden
    Christian
    Private
    It's kind of you to offer links, don't know if that would be of help though. Can it not be explained here, I don't think anyone else can either. Unless you have something really new about it.
     
  11. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

    +30,720
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    That’s what happens when you let a human devised example try to explain God’s plan of Redemption.
     
  12. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

    +30,720
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Why did the Father send the Son?
     
  13. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

    +865
    Sweden
    Christian
    Private
    I can buy that someone believe in PS because the Bible teaches it. But to logically explain it seems impossible. Of course, like I said, everything doesn't have to be logical to be true.
     
  14. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

    +30,720
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    The entire Bible is about God’s plan of Redemption from before the Foundations of the Earth. Your out of context verses can be stacked as high as the Tower of Babel and you won’t undo the fact Salvation is from God, Of God and Through God.
     
  15. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

    +30,720
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    I think quite a few have explained it. I think you just don’t like it.
     
  16. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +5,365
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    What does the life of a believer look like in this view?
    Do they sin several times a day or only several times a week?
    Why would Jesus warn us about how sin can destroy our soul in the after life if things are as you say? (See Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46). It seems kind of odd that Jesus would give us these kinds of new teachings just to have them radically change so quickly after the cross.
     
  17. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +5,365
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Just saying the verses I quote are out of context does not prove that they are quoted out of context. You need to actually show how they are taken out of context in order to prove that you are correct here.
     
  18. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

    +865
    Sweden
    Christian
    Private
    To cast out Satan, by overcoming the sin of the world and forgive the sin of every person that repents.
     
  19. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +5,365
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Not my first time reading the Bible. You are not telling me anything new, and I fail to see how this helps prove that a believer can sin and still be saved by having a belief in the finished work of Christ.
     
  20. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

    +865
    Sweden
    Christian
    Private
    Actually I have most of my time as a Christian taken PS as something unquestionable. Last year or so I discovered that there actually are other explanations, that to me makes more sense. I would like to believe in PS, if it makes sense. There is a comfort in it, I know.

    If someone paid my penalty, it's paid and I'm free. Why do I need to add faith to a fact? Why do I have to receive that my punishment has been erased? It's been paid, done, erased from God's memory... "Receive it by faith". Ok, if I don't is it not still paid? Do I have to suffer again, what Christ allready suffered for and paid for me?
     
Loading...