If no Purgatory why pray for the dead?

[Markie Boy]

So I'm learning more about the East as I go and this is a question I have. If the East does not believe in purgatory, why pray for the dead? Are they in some other state? We know if they are in Heaven they are not in need of our prayers, and if in Hell they will do no good.

 

[archer75]

One answer is that God heard our prayers in / before eternity, so we don't know how God might "have already" helped them in the past in "response" to our prayers.

But there are better answers that I'm sure will be mentioned shortly.

 

[com7fy8]

While people are alive, we can pray for them. We minister for each other to be conformed to the image of Jesus so we are ready to spend eternity with God and one another in His family caring and sharing love. Not only do we pray, but we grow in how Jesus is and how He has us relating as His family so this is what we will reap so much more in the resurrection.

Romans 8:29 > we are predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus > this is a process to be involved in now while we are on this earth > 1 John 4:17-18, Philippians 2:13-16

Colossians 1:28-29 > Paul labored for this

Ephesians 4:15 > we minister this to one another > Ephesians 4:29, 1 Peter 4:9-10

Ephesians 4:31-32 > we love as family, now

Galatians 6:7-8 > we will reap so much more than how we have become in this life

 

[~Anastasia~]

So I'm learning more about the East as I go and this is a question I have. If the East does not believe in purgatory, why pray for the dead? Are they in some other state? We know if they are in Heaven they are not in need of our prayers, and if in Hell they will do no good.

Not only is God not limited by time (He could have answered our prayers before we prayed them) but it's also true that the judgement is not yet.

There seem to be different opinions about how all this can play out, but it seems to me God has not revealed exact mechanics of prayer and grace to us in some cases. So we might not know everything.

We pray for them because we love them.

Not only might our prayers benefit them, but they might also benefit us as well for having prayed in love. How and when God works that is His business.




My answer is not "official" (as in complete doctrine) by the way, but as far as I'm aware there's nothing wrong with it.

 

[ArmyMatt]

for one, it's Biblical.

for two, what archer said.

for three, prayers by the Church for the departed can help those who are dead. at the very least, they can lessen the torment of those in hades.

 

[com7fy8]

@ArmyMatt > I know you are Orthodox and I am talking about what I think was a Roman Catholic thing, but I'm interested in what you know.

A man murdered his wife and killed himself. Then he was given a Mass and two priests came in, who were not pastoring that church, to my knowledge. One came in order to help the other. The pastor was not there.

It is understood that murder and suicide are "mortal" sins, meaning if you do them and do not confess and repent of them, you are sure to go to hell. And, of course, how could he confess and repent of suicide if he killed himself, ones understand?? But you might understand otherwise.

But here are two priests from I don't know where, and the presiding one led recitation of a prayer, if I remember correctly, referring to the murder-suicidist as the Lord's "servant". That got my attention, of course, since I was brought up Roman Catholic to know suicide and murder are not serving God and are mortal sins. And I would think that if a person's way of living led him to murder and suicide, that takes a lot of development in activity which is not serving the Lord, I consider.

But I know there can be special operation things in the Catholic Church. So, may be those were specialized priests who can overrule the man's hell sentence. Or, may be they have authority to declare him mentally unable to understand what he was doing, and they minister for him to be acquitted, and have special power in the Catholic Church to do this.

Is there such a thing, that you know of, in either or both the Roman and Orthodox groups?

God bless you, too > thank you

Bill

 

[SkyWriting]

So I'm learning more about the East as I go and this is a question I have. If the East does not believe in purgatory, why pray for the dead? Are they in some other state? We know if they are in Heaven they are not in need of our prayers, and if in Hell they will do no good.

God lives outside of time, so the order of things is not relevant.
God answers prayers before one is born.

 

[buzuxi02]

We dont readily pray for evil people. Mostly it's for the champions of the faith.

 

[All4Christ]

So I'm learning more about the East as I go and this is a question I have. If the East does not believe in purgatory, why pray for the dead? Are they in some other state? We know if they are in Heaven they are not in need of our prayers, and if in Hell they will do no good.

Simply put - because we love them and because we know that they are beneficial in some way.

 

[ArmyMatt]

@ArmyMatt > I know you are Orthodox and I am talking about what I think was a Roman Catholic thing, but I'm interested in what you know.

A man murdered his wife and killed himself. Then he was given a Mass and two priests came in, who were not pastoring that church, to my knowledge. One came in order to help the other. The pastor was not there.

It is understood that murder and suicide are "mortal" sins, meaning if you do them and do not confess and repent of them, you are sure to go to hell. And, of course, how could he confess and repent of suicide if he killed himself, ones understand?? But you might understand otherwise.

But here are two priests from I don't know where, and the presiding one led recitation of a prayer, if I remember correctly, referring to the murder-suicidist as the Lord's "servant". That got my attention, of course, since I was brought up Roman Catholic to know suicide and murder are not serving God and are mortal sins. And I would think that if a person's way of living led him to murder and suicide, that takes a lot of development in activity which is not serving the Lord, I consider.

But I know there can be special operation things in the Catholic Church. So, may be those were specialized priests who can overrule the man's hell sentence. Or, may be they have authority to declare him mentally unable to understand what he was doing, and they minister for him to be acquitted, and have special power in the Catholic Church to do this.

Is there such a thing, that you know of, in either or both the Roman and Orthodox groups?

God bless you, too > thank you

Bill

dunno if I can really answer because for us, the only mortal sin is the one not repented of, but only God knows if the guy that committed suicide repented in that last split second.

 

[Not David]

We dont readily pray for evil people. Mostly it's for the champions of the faith.

What do you mean? I thought prayers were for everyone

 

[Not David]

dunno if I can really answer because for us, the only mortal sin is the one not repented of, but only God knows if the guy that committed suicide repented in that last split second.

Does the Church offer funerals for killers and people who killed themselves?

 

[Lukaris]

While the earthly living are our priority in prayer, how can we overlook the departed when reading passages like:

Matthew 22:31-32

John 5:22-30

Luke 16:19-31


Later add:
I also recall an Orthodox poster a few years back mentioning the raising of Lazarus & that the Lord prayed for him. ( John 11:41-45)

etc.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Does the Church offer funerals for killers and people who killed themselves?

if the killer repented, yes. I think you do a normal funeral. for a suicide, you do a trisagion.

 

[Not David]

for one, it's Biblical.

for two, what archer said.

for three, prayers by the Church for the departed can help those who are dead. at the very least, they can lessen the torment of those in hades.

What verses talk about prayers for the dead Father?

 

[All4Christ]

What verses talk about prayers for the dead Father?

“May the Lord grant Onesiphorus to find mercy from the Lord on that Day.” - St Paul

Onesiphorus was dead at this point, so we can see that St Paul prayed for someone who was already reposed.

2 Timothy 1:16-18 (RSV): “May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me; he was not ashamed of my chains, [17] but when he arrived in Rome he searched for me eagerly and found me – [18] may the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day – and you well know all the service he rendered at Ephesus.” (cf. 4:19)

 

[Not David]

“May the Lord grant Onesiphorus to find mercy from the Lord on that Day.” - St Paul

Onesiphorus was dead at this point, so we can see that St Paul prayed for someone who was already reposed.

2 Timothy 1:16-18 (RSV): “May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me; he was not ashamed of my chains, [17] but when he arrived in Rome he searched for me eagerly and found me – [18] may the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day – and you well know all the service he rendered at Ephesus.” (cf. 4:19)

Thanks, I forgot about that one. I thought he might be referring to 2nd Macabees.

 

[ArmyMatt]

“May the Lord grant Onesiphorus to find mercy from the Lord on that Day.” - St Paul

Onesiphorus was dead at this point, so we can see that St Paul prayed for someone who was already reposed.

2 Timothy 1:16-18 (RSV): “May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me; he was not ashamed of my chains, [17] but when he arrived in Rome he searched for me eagerly and found me – [18] may the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day – and you well know all the service he rendered at Ephesus.” (cf. 4:19)

beat me to it.

 

[buzuxi02]

What do you mean? I thought prayers were for everyone

Prayers are for everyone, and yet heretics have been dropped from the diptychs even posthumously to never be prayed for again.
In Orthodoxy the overwhelming majority of names submitted year after year, decade after decade, to be prayed for are for loved ones. I have memorials and prsyers for my grandma 15 years now but we all believe she is in heaven praying for us as well. Reciprocity, the communion of the saints.

 

[All4Christ]

beat me to it.

It was a shock to me when I read this after starting to look into Orthodoxy. I had read it many many times before, but never put two and two together