If no Bible translation is perfect then do we really have Gods word?

Paul of Eugene OR

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1 Corinthians 1:13
Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

Or in other words were you baptized in the name of Billy? Not me, we are not to put our trust in men, especially when you dig into their connections. Anyhow off topic.

Relax, I was baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. I just mention Billy Graham as being a good man. There are lots of good men.

I for one think the KJV is trustworthy and even more so the Geneva bible.

There is no logical or spiritual reason to trust the KJV over other translations. KJV is a great translation. There are other great translations. You can, of course, make up an axiom that the KJV is the only trusted translation. But you have to make it up. It is one of those fallible opinions of men to say that.
 
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FireDragon76

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Can we trust a Bible with mistakes?
Can we trust any Bible 100%?
Which Bible/s can we trust?
What does it mean when God said he will preserve his word?

What are your thoughts?


(no kjv onlyism)


That's why bibliolatry, among other reasons, is so foolish. Religious authorities rarely know as much as they presume they do.
 
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kiwimac

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The KJV is an ok but dated translation, there are better about. Try the NASB, for a word-for-word translation or the NIV for concept by concept one. Both are fine translations. I currently use 5 or 6 English translations.
 
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dcalling

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Can we trust a Bible with mistakes?
Can we trust any Bible 100%?
Which Bible/s can we trust?
What does it mean when God said he will preserve his word?

What are your thoughts?


(no kjv onlyism)


God protects his word, so yes you can trust the Bible in its message (but not in all the small details since God allow certain translation errors to occur, example may be how many Israels exited from Egypt, or certain verses from the Bible that is really hard to translate).

So trust the clear messages, i.e. No idol worshiping, don't murder, steal etc, Love your neighbor, pray for your enemy, Jesus is the way, truth and life.

I believe God intentionally made some of the passages unclear, so that all what God predicted in Bible could happen.
 
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FireDragon76

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2Timothy2:15

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The purpose of the Bible is to introduce us to the Lord. Once we get to know the Lord, we learn directly from him.

And the Lord, the Holy Spirit never contradicts what he has already spoken to us through his word, the bible.
 
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For those KJV only people, how many of you read it with a dictionary that can be traced to the 1600s by your side? The meaning of many words has changed over the years. I know that there are KJV dictionaries out there, but one that I was looking at was largely based on Webster’s 1828 dictionary, not a good way to determine what words meant in the 1600s.
 
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DeaconDean

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But the meanings of some of it's words have changed over the centuries. For that matter, what makes you think THAT version is perfect?

Exactly!

I wonder if Rita G knows what "napkin" meant in the early years of the first century?

"καὶ τὸ σουδάριον, ὃ ἦν ἐπὶ τῆς κεφαλῆς αὐτοῦ, οὐ μετὰ τῶν ὀθονίων κείμενον ἀλλὰ χωρὶς ἐντετυλιγμένον εἰς ἕνα τόπον." -Jn. 20:7 (GNT)

"And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself." -Jn. 20:7 (KJV)

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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JoeP222w

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Can we trust a Bible with mistakes?
Can we trust any Bible 100%?
Which Bible/s can we trust?
What does it mean when God said he will preserve his word?

What are your thoughts?


(no kjv onlyism)

Yes, we can trust the Bible completely.

The Bible has the greatest manuscript evidence of any document of antiquity. More than 24,000 manuscripts with less than 2% errors and with those errors having little to no impact on the meaning the text. They are simple grammatical errors, an example would be to say "an apple" or "a apple". Virtually no difference and no change in meaning of the text.

As far as translations, there are a couple of accurate word for word translations. It is just preference, but I prefer English Standard Version. It is good to study many different translations.

God has preserved His word, in that nothing from the Bible has been lost, that the man who reads and studies the Bible will be saved if he repents and trusts in Jesus Christ and will be equipped to live a life of holiness. There will be no test of entry into Heaven on what translation of the Bible you read and studied, but how you turned from your sins and trusted in Jesus Christ.
 
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Biblicist

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As far as translations, there are a couple of accurate word for word translations. It is just preference, but I prefer English Standard Version. It is good to study many different translations.
It should be pointed out that there is no such creature as a 'word-for-word' translation, in fact, there is nothing that even comes close to the original Hebrew and Greek texts. The idea that we can accurately transpose the word order from a given donor language (ie, Hebrew or Greek) into a receptor language (ie, English) is a fallacy, the best that any translation committee can hope to present is a good quality Bible based on functional-equivalency.

Even the highly reliable translation, the NASB (1995) is not a word-for word translation (as none exist), but the translation committee have certainly adhered to the Principle of formal-equivalence, which is still not a so called word-for-word translation.
 
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DeaconDean

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hmmm . . I see we have those who speak in tongues, as well as those who have 'visions' and even those who have conversations with god! Hey, what do we need a bible for, we got the benny hinn show right here!

This just keeps getting funnier and funnier.

And, it also shows that what was said here:

The meaning of many words has changed over the years.

Is absolutely correct.

The KJV is about the only version that renders "σουδάριον" as "napkin".

Most other versions render it as: "handkerchief".

Merriam Webster defines "napkin" as:

"a piece of material (such as cloth or paper) used at table to wipe the lips or fingers and protect the clothes"

Source

The Greek word means:

"σουδάριον, σουδαριου, τό (a Latin word,sudarium, from sudor, sweat; cf. Buttmann, 18 (16)), a handkerchief, i. e. a cloth for wiping the perspiration from the face and for cleaning the nose: Luke 19:20; Acts 19:12; also used in swathing the head of a corpse (A. V. napkin), John 11:44; John 20:7. (Cf. BB. DD., under the word .)"

Source

So while you make jokes, make fun of me, I can show why there is a need to read and study outside the KJV.

So go on, make me the butt of your jokes, I don't care.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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"
When the King James Version of the Bible came off the press of Robert Barker in 1611, it contained an eleven-page preface titled “The Translators to the Reader.” This preface is primarily a defense of the new translation, but it also provides important information about the translators’ views on the subject of Bible translation. It is an embarrassment (or should be) to King James-only advocates because it contains statements from the translators that are in direct opposition to the KJV-only position. It is most unfortunate that this preface is no longer included in modern copies of the KJV. This post is the beginning of a series that will examine the actual words of the preface in order to refute the erroneous ideas of KJV-only movement with the words of the translators themselves. But before beginning that examination, I will summarize the contents of the preface.

The preface begins by noting, along with examples, that all new endeavors of whatever kind will commonly face opposition. This is also true for persons who attempt to change and improve anything, even if they are important people like kings. However, the greatest opposition and severest vilification is reserved for those who modify or change the current translation of the Bible, even if that translation is known to have defects.

Next there follows a long section praising Scripture, noting its great value and divine origin. But the perfections of Scripture can never be appreciated unless it is understood, and it cannot be understood until it is translated into the common tongue. Translation is therefore a good thing. Thus, God in his providence raised up individuals to translate the Old Testament into Greek. The Septuagint, though far from perfect, was still sufficient as the Word of God, such that the apostles quoted it in the NT. And even thought the Septuagint was the Word of God, scholars believed it could be improved, which led to the Greek versions of Aquila, Theodotion, and Symmachus, as well as the Hexapla of Origen. Both testaments were then translated into Latin, culminating in Jerome’s Vulgate. Finally, the Scriptures were translated into many tongues, including English. However, the preface observes, the Roman Catholic Church has generally not allowed the Scriptures to be rendered into the common tongues. Recently, they have produced their own translation of the Bible into English though they seem to have been forced to do it against their better judgment due to the number of Protestant English Bibles available.


The preface then returns to the problem of opposition to the new translation, and translations in general, by answering several objections. The main argument against the new translation questions the need for it, that is, since there had already been a number of English translation of the Bible, why is there need for another? If previous translations were good, there should be no need for another; if they were defective, why were they ever offered in the first place? The answer is, of course, that “nothing is begun and perfected at the same time.” While the efforts of previous English translators are to be commended, nevertheless, they themselves, if they were alive, would thank the translators of this new translation. The previous English Bibles were basically sound, but this new translation affords an opportunity to make improvements and corrections.

The translators argue that all previous English translations can rightly be called the Word of God, even though they may contain some “imperfections and blemishes.” Just as the King’s speech which he utters in Parliament is still the King’s speech, though it may be imperfectly translated into French, Dutch, Italian, and Latin; so also in the case of the translation of the Word of God. For translations will never be infallible since they are not like the original manuscripts, which were produced by the apostles and their associates under the influence of inspiration. However, even an imperfect translation like the Septuagint can surely be called the Word of God since it was approved and used by the apostles themselves. But since all translations are imperfect, the Church of Rome should not object to the continual process of correcting and improving English translations of the Bible. Even their own Vulgate has gone through many revisions since the day of Jerome.

Finally, the translators state the purpose and plan of the present translation. They have not intended to make a new translation, but to make the best possible translation by improving upon previous ones. To do so they have, of course, carefully examined the original Hebrew and Greek since translation should only be done from the original tongues. Also, they did not work hastily, as did the translators of the Septuagint, who, according to legend, finished their work in only seventy-two days. The translators also availed themselves of commentaries and translations of the Scriptures in other languages. In their work they felt it was essential to include marginal notes, despite the fact that some might feel such notes tend to undermine the authority of the Scriptures. These notes are essential since the translators confess that oftentimes they were unsure how a word or phrase should be translated. This is especially true in Hebrew, where there are a number of words which only occur once in Scripture, and even the Jews themselves are uncertain about their translation. And so, as Augustine notes, a “variety of translations is profitable for finding out of the sense of the Scriptures.” Lastly, the translators observe that, in spite of criticism from some quarters, they decided not to always translate the same Hebrew or Greek word with the same English word and have retained, over the objections of the Puritans, the old ecclesiastical words like “baptism” instead of “washings.”

Source

The Geneva Bible, was the one used just prior to the King James.

Read what the KJ Translators said about it:

"But it is high time to leave them, and to shew in briefe what wee proposed to our selves, and what course we held in this our perusall and survay of the Bible. Truly (good Christian Reader) wee never thought from the beginning, that we should neede to make a new Translation, nor yet to make of a bad one a good one, (for then the imputation of Sixtus had bene true in some sort, that our people had bene fed with gall of Dragons in stead of wine, with whey in stead of milke:) but to make a good one better, or out of many good ones, one principall good one, not justly to be excepted against; that hath bene our indeavour, that our marke."

Source

I'm sorry, but the KJVonlyists, have make their dedication to that version, saying it is "the preserved word of God", have made it an idol.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Biblicist

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This just keeps getting funnier and funnier.

And, it also shows that what was said here:



Is absolutely correct.

The KJV is about the only version that renders "σουδάριον" as "napkin".

Most other versions render it as: "handkerchief".

Merriam Webster defines "napkin" as:

"a piece of material (such as cloth or paper) used at table to wipe the lips or fingers and protect the clothes"

Source

The Greek word means:

"σουδάριον, σουδαριου, τό (a Latin word,sudarium, from sudor, sweat; cf. Buttmann, 18 (16)), a handkerchief, i. e. a cloth for wiping the perspiration from the face and for cleaning the nose: Luke 19:20; Acts 19:12; also used in swathing the head of a corpse (A. V. napkin), John 11:44; John 20:7. (Cf. BB. DD., under the word .)"

Source

So while you make jokes, make fun of me, I can show why there is a need to read and study outside the KJV.

So go on, make me the butt of your jokes, I don't care.

God Bless

Till all are one.
As for the world of the KJO advocate, it is certainly a strange one that seems to be not so much focused on honest Biblical exegesis but with mysticism and the strange writings of its main proponents.

You might find the following Lexicon entries to be of some interest.

1. Friberg Lexicon:
24688 σουδάριον, ου, τό face cloth, handkerchief, napkin (LU 19.20); as used to bind shut the jaws or wrap the head of a corpse cloth, kerchief (JN 11.44)​

2. UBS Lexicon:
5547 σουδάριον , ου n handkerchief; facecloth (used for the dead)​

3. Louw-Nida Lexicon:
6.159 σουδάριον, ου n: a small piece of cloth used as a towel, napkin, or face cloth - 'towel, napkin, handkerchief, face cloth.' ὥστε καὶ ἐπὶ τοὺς ἀσθενοῦντας ἀποφέρεσθαι ἀπὸ τοῦ χρωτὸς αὐτοῦ σουδάρια ἢ σιμικίνθια 'even handkerchiefs and aprons he had used were taken to the sick' Ac 19.12; ἡ ὄφις αὐτοῦ σουδαρίῳ περιεδέδετο 'his face was covered with a face cloth' Jn 11.44.​

4. LSJ Lexicon:
39343 σουδάριον
σουδάριον
, τό, the Lat. sudarium, a kerchief, N.T.
5. BDAG Lexicon:
6748 σουδάριον
σουδάριον, ου, τό (Lat. loanw.: sudarium [ESchwyzer, NJklA 7, 1901, 242; Hahn 263, 2]; Pollux 7, 71; CPR I, 27, 7f [190 AD]; 21, 19 [230 AD]; PGM 36, 269.—Also as a loanw. in Mishnah and Talmud [SKrauss, Griech. u. lat. Lehnwörter im Talmud II 1899, 373; Schürer II 70]) face-cloth for wiping perspiration, corresp. somewhat to our ‘handkerchief’ (s. GustavMeyer, SBAkWien 132/3, 1895, 62), prob. simply a cloth Lk 19:20 (on the slave’s legal correctness s. Horst, Ps.-Phoc. 121f); J 11:44; 20:7; Ac 19:12.—M-M.​

6. Gingrich Lexicon:
5859 σουδάριον
σουδάριον
, ου, τό (Latin loanword: sudarium) facecloth, handkerchief Lk 19:20; J 11:44; 20:7; Ac 19:12.* [pg 183]​
 
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DeaconDean

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As for the world of the KJO advocate, it is certainly a strange one that seems to be not so much focused on honest Biblical exegesis but with mysticism and the strange writings of its main proponents.

You might find the following Lexicon entries to be of some interest.

1. Friberg Lexicon:
24688 σουδάριον, ου, τό face cloth, handkerchief, napkin (LU 19.20); as used to bind shut the jaws or wrap the head of a corpse cloth, kerchief (JN 11.44)​

2. UBS Lexicon:
5547 σουδάριον , ου n handkerchief; facecloth (used for the dead)​

3. Louw-Nida Lexicon:
6.159 σουδάριον, ου n: a small piece of cloth used as a towel, napkin, or face cloth - 'towel, napkin, handkerchief, face cloth.' ὥστε καὶ ἐπὶ τοὺς ἀσθενοῦντας ἀποφέρεσθαι ἀπὸ τοῦ χρωτὸς αὐτοῦ σουδάρια ἢ σιμικίνθια 'even handkerchiefs and aprons he had used were taken to the sick' Ac 19.12; ἡ ὄφις αὐτοῦ σουδαρίῳ περιεδέδετο 'his face was covered with a face cloth' Jn 11.44.​

4. LSJ Lexicon:
39343 σουδάριον
σουδάριον
, τό, the Lat. sudarium, a kerchief, N.T.
5. BDAG Lexicon:
6748 σουδάριον
σουδάριον, ου, τό (Lat. loanw.: sudarium [ESchwyzer, NJklA 7, 1901, 242; Hahn 263, 2]; Pollux 7, 71; CPR I, 27, 7f [190 AD]; 21, 19 [230 AD]; PGM 36, 269.—Also as a loanw. in Mishnah and Talmud [SKrauss, Griech. u. lat. Lehnwörter im Talmud II 1899, 373; Schürer II 70]) face-cloth for wiping perspiration, corresp. somewhat to our ‘handkerchief’ (s. GustavMeyer, SBAkWien 132/3, 1895, 62), prob. simply a cloth Lk 19:20 (on the slave’s legal correctness s. Horst, Ps.-Phoc. 121f); J 11:44; 20:7; Ac 19:12.—M-M.​

6. Gingrich Lexicon:
5859 σουδάριον
σουδάριον
, ου, τό (Latin loanword: sudarium) facecloth, handkerchief Lk 19:20; J 11:44; 20:7; Ac 19:12.* [pg 183]​

I agree, as times change, so do our understanding of how each word's definition changes.

To us, a "napkin" is something to wipe your mouth with.

Back in AD 30, it had a total different meaning.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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Funny also is this. If your KJV reads like this:

"The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham." -Mt. 1:1 (KJV)

It is not the KJV!

It is a more "modern" version.

From the 1611 King James version:

"The booke of the generation of Iesus Christ, the sonne of Dauid, the sonne of Abraham." -Mt. 1:1 (1611 KJV)

This is the Geneva Bible of 1599:

"The booke of the generation of Jesus Christ the sonne of Dauid, the sonne of Abraham." -Mt. 1:1 (GB)

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DamianWarS

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Can we trust a Bible with mistakes?
Can we trust any Bible 100%?
Which Bible/s can we trust?
What does it mean when God said he will preserve his word?

What are your thoughts?


(no kjv onlyism)
We should invite the Holy Spirit to participate as we read so that all of those things you mentioned don't have a negative impact on God's Word
 
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Rita G.

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If no Bible translation is perfect then do we really have Gods word?

Dude, If you were told “no Bible translation is perfect”, and you believe THAT . . . You’re off to a bad start.

The bible is supernatural book full of supernatural things that god can do, and preserving his word PERFECTLY, is a cakewalk compared to most of the miracles god does in the bible.

“ no Bible translation is perfect” is told by people who DO NOT believe the bible themselves . .they have NO FAITH and don’t want you to have any either..

The bible is for those who have FAITH. Those who do not have FAITH are constantly looking for ways to prove it needs to be corrected, changed or altered to fit their agenda . . . Don’t go for it! . .

The KJV is god’s perfectly preserved word!
 
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DeaconDean

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The bible is for those who have FAITH. Those who do not have FAITH are constantly looking for ways to prove it needs to be corrected, changed or altered to fit their agenda . . . Don’t go for it! . .

Tell me please, what "bible" they had after AD 100.

The KJV is god’s perfectly preserved word!

Millions of people somehow must have perished prior to 1611 because there was no KJV before then.

:doh:

God Bless

TIll all are one.
 
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