If moderate drinking isn't sinful...

[Kilk1]

1. How do we explain 1 Peter 4:3's condemnation of "drinking parties" (NKJV; Greek, "potos"), which R. C. Trench said is "not of necessity excessive ... but giving opportunity for excess"? Does the condemnation of potos preclude moderate drinking?

2. If we shouldn't even look at wine when it's red and swirling around smoothly (Proverbs 23:31), then how can we drink it?

3. Is it true that one glass of modern wine would be equivalent to 11 glasses of Bible wine? (That's a claim I've heard from a preacher before.) If so, wouldn't even a single modern glass be excessive from a biblical standpoint?

These are the strongest arguments I've been taught against moderate/social drinking. I've been raised on these arguments to believe that all recreational use of alcohol is inherently sinful. However, as explained on my last thread, I've since heard arguments favoring the moderate use of alcohol, and now I'm doubting my old presuppositions. If the three arguments above can be overcome, I think I'll change my mind. Thanks!

Note: If your post ignores my questions above, I may ignore your post. While the discussion doesn't have to be limited to the questions, make sure they're included in your reply.

 

[ReesePiece23]

I'd have thought that the non-filtered, small batch fermented, bible wine would be ENORMOUSLY high in ABV. I can't imagine it being in any way dainty or easy on the pallet either.

In my view, a glass of wine is only going to be beneficial. It's only when we start abusing alcohol (or any substance) that it becomes an issue.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Context certainly matters especially with that verse from proverbs.

I myself believe in moderate drinking, but haven't drank in a few years since I'm trying to cut out unnecessary calories etc. with weight gain issues, not to mention have had jobs that have strict standards for drinking before work time, basically identical to what police have. And by now I have gotten in the habit of simply not drinking.

 

[thecolorsblend]

1. How do we explain 1 Peter 4:3's condemnation of "drinking parties" (NKJV; Greek, "potos"), which R. C. Trench said is "not of necessity excessive ... but giving opportunity for excess"? Does the condemnation of potos preclude moderate drinking?

Those events were something a lot more intensive than a couple of guys hanging out in a bar knocking back a beer or three. All manner of bacchanalia was known to occur at those parties. The Romans were rather famous for their excesses when it comes to that. So even if moderate drinking occurred at those parties (as seems likely), other things are happening as well that make attending parties like that a bad idea.

The consumption of wine in a religious context goes back to the very earliest days of Christianity. Including the Last Supper, incidentally. So I am at a loss to explain how consumption of alcohol can be inherently sinful (A) considering its historical pedigree and (B) bearing in mind that Our Lord was sinless and consumed wine.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Matthew 11:18-19

18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon!’ 1

19The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look at this glutton and drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners! But wisdom is vindicated by her actions.

 

[paul1149]

1. Let's take a look at that verse:

For the time already past is sufficient for you to have carried out the desire of the Gentiles, having pursued a course of sensuality, lusts, drunkenness, carousing, drinking parties and abominable idolatries. -1Pet 4:3​

What if I told you that as a Christian you need to avoid adultery, fornication, murder, theft, brawling, and stamp collecting? Would that raise you eyebrows? You would wonder why I classed stamp collecting with other obviously serious sins, correct?

Then why would Peter include a "one of these things is not like the other" moment in this verse? He wouldn't. What on earth is wrong with getting together with friends or family and having a bit of wine with a meal? He had in mind sins that will seriously affect one's spiritual life. Potois can simply mean banqueting, but we have to see its use here in context. If the Pharisees could readily call Jesus a winebibber, it's likely there was something for them to base their false accusation on. IOW, Jesus drank wine. He also made it at Cana.

2. Those who linger long over wine, Those who go to taste mixed wine.
Do not look on the wine when it is red, When it sparkles in the cup, When it goes down smoothly; -Prov 23:30-31

Again, context. He just framed his statement in the context of lingering long over wine. So he means don't get captivated gazing into your wine glass. It should be obvious, I hope, that looking at a glass of wine is not a problem.

3. I don't know about a 12:1 strength ratio. Recall that wine was used as a preservative for grape juice. It was diluted down, but it still must have been strong enough to resist spoilage.

Of course, moderate drinking can be a problem if you have a weakness for alcohol, if your doing it would stumble someone else who has a weakness for alcohol, or if you are under conviction that you need to curtail it for personal spiritual reasons. But those are individual, situational concerns, not a basis for doctrine.

 

[Friedrich Rubinstein]

Jesus himself drank wine and he turned water into wine so that other people could drink (which he would not have done if drinking was a sin). So even though I don't touch any alcohol myself I defend "moderate drinking" in the sense of "drinking a bit because you like it". I do not defend drinking when you do it only for social reasons or when it gets to the point of getting drunk.

To your points:
1. Another translation sounds like this and I think it makes it obvious what Peter actually meant:
"For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do — living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry."

All of these clearly exceed the casual glass of wine you might want to drink to a meal or in the evening.

2. This is a good example of a verse being taken out of context. Let's look at the whole thing:

"Those who linger over wine, who go to sample bowls of mixed wine.
Do not gaze at wine when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup,
when it goes down smoothly! In the end it bites like a snake
and poisons like a viper. Your eyes will see strange sights,
and your mind will imagine confusing things."

You see, it talks about the condition of getting/being drunk, when you are not aware of your surroundings anymore and just stare into your cup. When you dazed think "oh how pretty this sparkling, red wine is" because you are not in control of your thoughts anymore.

3. That's a very questionable statement. I went to a school where we had to learn Latin and once we got to drink wine like the romans used to make it. Wow, it had quite some percentage! It certainly felt stronger than today's average wine.
But even if my feeling's wrong and there is more alcohol in wine today then I see no argument in the Bible that would not allow moderate drinking. God always knew how the brewing would develop and if He did not want us to drink anything at all He had clearly told us.

 

[Junia]

Jesus would have gone to feasts. Passover feasts with ordinary people but also to houses of tax collectors, pharisees etc he would have eaten with rich people who dined on fine food.

He was accused of being a glutton and a winebibber. Of course Jesus was guilty of nothing, but in those days gluttony wasn't simply defined as overeating but of eating the finest quality of.foods whilst others starved. food wasn't mass produced like it is now. Eating too much was even considered a stoneable offence if your adult child was doing it, according to the law of moses!

So I am guessing the pharisees who were accusing Jesus were trying to make out that his eating nice things would have been a terrible thing and wasteful. I certainly don't think Jesus was binge eating like. pig with its face in a trough or taking more than his fair share!

 

[ReesePiece23]

Context certainly matters especially with that last verse from proverbs.

I myself believe in moderate drinking, but haven't drank in a few years since I'm trying to cut out unnecessary calories etc. with weight gain issues, not to mention have had jobs that have strict standards for drinking before work time, basically identical to what police have. And am also have now gotten in the habit of simply not drinking.

*Slightly off topic, but worth mentioning...

I actually became a functioning alcoholic by accident a few years ago when I was away managing a herd of cattle. Alcohol then WAS a stimulant to me just like caffeine is - so I actually performed better at work and had bags of energy (I had no one around to tell me I couldn't drink, I lived and worked alone).

I became physically adapted to it and treated alcohol like food. It's actually a common trend with alcoholics - my dad and sister are exactly the same. If you're drinking consistently, then you actually feel famished if you don't drink, and sustained when you do. It's as if a light comes on when you have a drink (think about how you feel when you have a strong coffee after waking up tired - that's what it feels like.)

As much as I LOVE my Belgian beers and imperial stouts I have to be very careful these days. I do drink, but I don't delude myself anymore. I treat alcohol for what it is and respect it. Plus, my tolerance is back to nothing anyway, so I can't handle the hard stuff now. One light lager and I'll fall asleep.

*Back on topic...

 

[Junia]

And with the wind pretty sure Jesus wasn't inhaling glass after.glass after.glass and getting drunk. I am guessing he had some as.liquid refreshment , maybe even diluted with water, maybe not. But probably not loads and probably not high alcohol anyway....but those accusing him wild see.him.Eating and drinking and would use a bit of truth, exaggerate it and begin a smear.campaign against Jesus.

Am sure Jesus partied and drank very moderately but not in a hard-core fashion. Partying in the sense of donut with someone at their home and partaking of good food and wine. Also he didn't do it for fun most likely but to evangelise

 

[Junia]

Not that am saying doing it for fun is wrong, but I mean his motives wouldn't be about self or pleasure. He had ?3 years in which to accomplish his mission. He rested and relaxed enough for what would be neccessary, am sure, but I doubt his.focus was much to do with wine!

 

[Junia]

*Slightly off topic, but worth mentioning...

I actually became a functioning alcoholic by accident a few years ago when I was away managing a herd of cattle. Alcohol then WAS a stimulant to me just like caffeine is - so I actually performed better at work and had bags of energy (I had no one around to tell me I couldn't drink, I lived and worked alone).

I became physically adapted to it and treated alcohol like food. It's actually a common trend with alcoholics - my dad and sister are exactly the same. If you're drinking consistently, then you actually feel famished if you don't drink, and sustained when you do. It's as if a light comes on when you have a drink (think about how you feel when you have a strong coffee after waking up tired - that's what it feels like.)

As much as I LOVE my Belgian beers and imperial stouts I have to be very careful these days. I do drink, but I don't delude myself anymore. I treat alcohol for what it is and respect it. Plus, my tolerance is back to nothing anyway, so I can't handle the hard stuff now. One light lager and I'll fall asleep.

*Back on topic...

I definitely agree that some people shouldn't go near alcohol. AA , which is a treatment i really respect ( am in a similar kind of group for another addiction and it really helpful) emphasises the need for alcoholics to abstain completely.


I myself am not supposed to drink alcohol because of a combination of health issues and medications for them and also although I never have f been a true alcoholic, as someone who does struggle with compulsive addictive behaviours , am aware that addictions can morph into other addictions if the underlying issue being "medicated" isn't dealt with, i don't feel drinking is right for me. I know God does not wish me to drink because of my health, he wants me whole as I can be.

But I still cannot say moderate drinking is a sin for everyone.... There are some things I can do that other Christians can't. E.g. I can listen to secular classical music e.g. a piano concerto where some Christians feel convicted about listening to any secular music. I myself feel I cannot watch it read Harry Potter but I know born again spirit filled believers for whom it isn't an issue.

I do think there are black and white commandments in the Word but there are areas also which are not the same for every believer.

 

[Junia]

I think some of these black and white commandments refer to sins which can cause someone to be unable to inherit eternal life but then there are other ones like Harry potter, drinking without drunkenness or abusing one's body, etc which may be less of a salvation issue more a conscience issue.

I met a ChristiAn lady who was horrified that I celebrate christmas. I don't have a tree or buy into the Santa thing but I do listen to carols, or Handel's Messiah/Bach's Christmas Oratorio etc and meet up for Turkey or goose on Christmas day . This lady said she couldn't even do that and was upset that I would take any part in Christmas at all! We agreed in the end to not argue with one another because it wasn't a salvation issue but a matter of conscience.

 

[dqhall]

According to Paul it is permissible to abstain from drinking wine or eating meat.

Romans 14:2 (WEB) It is good to not eat meat, drink wine, nor do anything by which your brother stumbles, is offended, or is made weak.

Scientific studies have determined both alcohol and red meat are carcinogens. Excessive cholesterol intake has been linked to cardiovascular disease.

Alcohol abuse is a leading cause of early onset dementia/senility.

 

[Monksailor]

1. How do we explain 1 Peter 4:3's condemnation of "drinking parties" (NKJV; Greek, "potos"), which R. C. Trench said is "not of necessity excessive ... but giving opportunity for excess"? Does the condemnation of potos preclude moderate drinking?

2. If we shouldn't even look at wine when it's red and swirling around smoothly (Proverbs 23:31), then how can we drink it?

3. Is it true that one glass of modern wine would be equivalent to 11 glasses of Bible wine? (That's a claim I've heard from a preacher before.) If so, wouldn't even a single modern glass be excessive from a biblical standpoint?

These are the strongest arguments I've been taught against moderate/social drinking. I've been raised on these arguments to believe that all recreational use of alcohol is inherently sinful. However, as explained on my last thread, I've since heard arguments favoring the moderate use of alcohol, and now I'm doubting my old presuppositions. If the three arguments above can be overcome, I think I'll change my mind. Thanks!

Note: If your post ignores my questions above, I may ignore your post. While the discussion doesn't have to be limited to the questions, make sure they're included in your reply.

What is "moderate" drinking? That is so vague that it is difficult to impossible to answer.
We are given 1 Tim 5:23 where Paul instructs Timothy to stop drinking only water but add a "little" wine for medicinal purposes. I would NOT interpret that as "moderate" at all. Drinking moderately to me means that you are definitely feeling the effects of the alcohol upon your body and mind and capable of receiving a DUI ticket. Moderately drinking IS a sin to me due to the fact that it puts oneself and others at a higher risk of injury. If I have it around I mix a "little" red wine with 100% Pomegranate juice for medicinal purposes. The wine makes the bitter juice much more palatable even though it is a dry wine. Right now I m mixing 2-4 oz of wine to 8 oz of juice. The recommended (Prevention mag) dose of wine is 8 oz and recommended dose of juice is 8 oz (Prevention mag, again.) This is to treat a very high genetic predisposition to accumulate Cholesterol in my body and I get a great additional burst of anti-oxidants. Pomegranate juice (100%), not those soda pop sugary and watered down blends, is very good for you in many ways but it has to be the mediciny, bitter 100%. It has been known for years that red wine is good for lowering cholesterol. For me, at 230 pounds weight, 8 oz of 13.5% Al wine a day, is the limit for me and for me, that qualifies as a :little" wine. It is different for each person. Drinking ANYTHING at all is VERY,VERY, VERY DANGEROUS for one who thinks that they need to drink till they feel a buzz. They should not drink at all, IMO. Drinking like that as the body develops a tolerance will have oneself drinking more and more and more alcohol to feel that buzz. One MUST have a mature/wise and self-controlled personality to drink ANY kind of alcohol, esp if done socially, at least in the USA. I understand that because the water is so bad in Europe everyone at all ages drinks wine? Well, growing up in that environment I suppose one learns how much is too much very early.

Your Prov verse I think and have been taught is addressing how the wine looks after or well into a drunken stupor.

Your 11 glasses of wine comparison!!??? Never heard of that. I have been a Christian since 1975, NOT in isolation.
FACT: Jesus told a parable of old and new wine skins which gave definite evidence that wine in that time WAS not the insignificant alcohol volume which you have been given. It would burst a new wine skin from fermenting and creating alcohol.

Sorry, more to say but must go.

 

[durangodawood]

...3. Is it true that one glass of modern wine would be equivalent to 11 glasses of Bible wine? (That's a claim I've heard from a preacher before.) If so, wouldn't even a single modern glass be excessive from a biblical standpoint?...

3. If old time wine was 1/11 as strong as current wine, no one would have ever been able to get drunk back then. "A preacher" is very wrong.

And a glass of wine doesnt get you drunk now.

 

[durangodawood]

...2. If we shouldn't even look at wine when it's red and swirling around smoothly (Proverbs 23:31), then how can we drink it?..

2. So when Jesus made wine for the wedding he told them not to look at it??? Because He definitely knew they were going to drink it.

Thats what we get if the proverb is the last word on drinking.

 

[bèlla]

As much as I LOVE my Belgian beers and imperial stouts I have to be very careful these days. I do drink, but I don't delude myself anymore. I treat alcohol for what it is and respect it. Plus, my tolerance is back to nothing anyway, so I can't handle the hard stuff now. One light lager and I'll fall asleep.

Reese,

I'm glad you came to your senses and got it under control. You have a lot to offer the world and your contribution is needed. I'm partial to the Belgians. Chimay is my favorite and Three Brothers released a cherry flavored beer that was unreal. But the alcohol content was greater. I drink wine and champagne most of all. I'll have French spirits occasionally. But I'm not a fan of strong drink for the most part.

Yours in His Service,

~Bella

 

[ReesePiece23]

I definitely agree that some people shouldn't go near alcohol. AA , which is a treatment i really respect ( am in a similar kind of group for another addiction and it really helpful) emphasises the need for alcoholics to abstain completely.


I myself am not supposed to drink alcohol because of a combination of health issues and medications for them and also although I never have f been a true alcoholic, as someone who does struggle with compulsive addictive behaviours , am aware that addictions can morph into other addictions if the underlying issue being "medicated" isn't dealt with, i don't feel drinking is right for me. I know God does not wish me to drink because of my health, he wants me whole as I can be.

But I still cannot say moderate drinking is a sin for everyone.... There are some things I can do that other Christians can't. E.g. I can listen to secular classical music e.g. a piano concerto where some Christians feel convicted about listening to any secular music. I myself feel I cannot watch it read Harry Potter but I know born again spirit filled believers for whom it isn't an issue.

I do think there are black and white commandments in the Word but there are areas also which are not the same for every believer.

It's a question of common sense and knowing yourself. If you drink and 'hit the ceiling' after a certain amount of drinks, then you're probably golden. But if you're the type to hang around until final orders and THEN continue back home then you've possibly got a problem - not definitely, but possibly.

I've spent most of my life turning down certain substances. Not because I didn't want them, but because I knew how much I'd probably enjoy them. And it's a Pandora's box I daren't open.

It's all about individual discretion imo.

 

[ReesePiece23]

Reese,

I'm glad you came to your senses and got it under control. You have a lot to offer the world and your contribution is needed. I'm partial to the Belgians. Chimay is my favorite and Three Brothers released a cherry flavored beer that was unreal. But the alcohol content was greater. I drink wine and champagne most of all. I'll have French spirits occasionally. But I'm not a fan of strong drink for the most part.

Yours in His Service,

~Bella

Straffe Hendrik is the king - especially the quad. And I can happily have a swift half of that now and leave it. And I'm glad too, I don't miss the booze hunger. Being able to enjoy something for what it is should be the goal for everyone. I wouldn't mind if it were 0%. As long as the maltiness is there.