If love does no wrong, how does love go to war with Russia?

[Halbhh]

So basically love sometimes does do evil "wrong" to its neighbor? If that neighbor is threatening your family?

Nobody can argue that Jesus does not consider all mankind to be our neighbors since he said so in the parable of the Samaritan who helped the man who was robbed and beaten.

If you work on thinking about (take seriously) what Christ said:

Matthew 7:12 In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the Prophets.

Which we should take seriously if we believe...

Then you begin to realize this rule commands us to defend others at times, including physically.

For example, if you were a police officer near a school that was being attacked by a shooter who is shooting people at the school, you cannot just stand by and try to just talk to the shooter as he shoots people -- if you did only that, you'd be disobeying what Christ said in this rule that "sums up the law" or is "the essence of the law", this rule that is key central intent of all law from God....

Instead, to be obedient to Christ's instruction to us, then as a police officer or soldier or nearby person you would have to do whatever it takes to stop the shooter before the shooter kills more people, including shooting at the shooter to stop him quickly if he is actively shooting at that very moment. If you just talked to him as he shot people, he'd kill more people, and it would become partly your fault in a way, as you failed to do what you should do, by Matthew 7:12.

See?

 

[Halbhh]

What can you do with..

Roman 13:10 "Love does not do evil (wrong) to its neighbor"

..other than become a total pacifist?

It means you personally can choose not to defend yourself in a way that hurts someone.

But if you are a Christian, it also means you must defend others as you can -- an act of love -- even in more intense situations (like a war) when the only way to defend others is to hurt the attacker who is harming them.

So, instead of saying you can be pacifist when others are being harmed, the words mean that you must do what others need such as to defend them.

As it happens though, a nation is involved here (a nation isn't just an individual), and it's a war, and nations will act. So, it's not up to you or me how a nation acts, and we can only say what we think should be done.

For example, the U.S. has just notified Russia and Iran that a major very powerful ballistic missile submarine is nearby in the Arabian Sea....ready to help defend Ukraine it would seem, such as to defend it against nuclear attack. It seems the message from the nation is that if Russia harms Ukraine with a nuclear attack, then the U.S. will defend Ukraine by wiping out some major portion of the invading Russian military capability, so that Russia won't be able to continue it's war of aggression against Ukraine.

 

[Rescued One]

So basically love sometimes does do evil "wrong" to its neighbor? If that neighbor is threatening your family?

Nobody can argue that Jesus does not consider all mankind to be our neighbors since he said so in the parable of the Samaritan who helped the man who was robbed and beaten.

We wouldn't have gone by without helping the man who was robbed and beaten. And if the robber came back and started beating us, what would you do?

 

[dqhall]

Roman 13:10 says:

Love does not do evil to its neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the Law.

The word for "evil" there in greek is translated "evil" most of the time in the New Testament and means evil in the most general sense.

Strong's Greek: 2556. κακός (kakos) -- bad, evil

So my question is, how can Christian Ukrainians in Ukraine right now shoot and kill Russians who are literally their neighbors both physically and spiritually according to Jesus's definition of a neighbor in Luke 10:37. In fact how can any Christian go to fight in war against any nation for any reason, even if it is a good cause? For that matter how can any Christian do anything that harms another human being for any reason, i.e. work in the police force harming criminals, sentencing them to jail etc.

I am not looking for answers that are purely moral reasoning. Obviously I realize we need police officers and sending criminals to jail.

But show me from scripture how doing evil "hurting people" can be done while still fulfilling the law of love in the New Testament described in that Romans 13:10 that I just quoted above.

I remember Russia mobilized tanks, personnel carriers and helicopters towards Ukrainian borders. Russian naval ships blockaded Ukraine’s ports. Moscow said they were doing a training exercise. Russia did a surprise attack during the darkness of night. It was going down like Hitler’s blitzkrieg. Putin threatened to decapitate Ukraine’s government. Members of parliament in Kiev went to the armory and were issued rifles. They decided it would be better to defend themselves by fighting. Neither side accepted the Gospel, did they?

Why can’t they just forgive each other, stop shooting and return to the borders of January 1, 2022?

 

[Rescued One]

I remember Russia mobilized tanks, personnel carriers and helicopters towards Ukrainian borders. Russian naval ships blockaded Ukraine’s ports. Moscow said they were doing a training exercise. Russia did a surprise attack during the darkness of night. It was going down like Hitler’s blitzkrieg. Putin threatened to decapitate Ukraine’s government. Members of parliament in Kiev went to the armory and were issued rifles. They decided it would be better to die fighting. Neither side accepted the Gospel, did they?

Why can’t they just forgive each other, stop shooting and return to the borders of January 1, 2022?

Are you saying God made a mistake when he allowed sin the world?

 

[dqhall]

Are you saying God made a mistake when he allowed sin the world?

Were dinosaurs a mistake? They lived and died like lizards. Look at all the improvements that have been made.

 

[ValeriyK2022]

I remember Russia mobilized tanks, personnel carriers and helicopters towards Ukrainian borders. Russian naval ships blockaded Ukraine’s ports. Moscow said they were doing a training exercise. Russia did a surprise attack during the darkness of night. It was going down like Hitler’s blitzkrieg. Putin threatened to decapitate Ukraine’s government. Members of parliament in Kiev went to the armory and were issued rifles. They decided it would be better to defend themselves by fighting. Neither side accepted the Gospel, did they?

Why can’t they just forgive each other, stop shooting and return to the borders of January 1, 2022?

Under the time of the last of the negotiations with Turkey yet, Ukraine suggested the such option: to turn back to the bords on February 23, 2022. Russia did not agree. When Nєmtsov was alive, he said that Russia wants all the coastal regions: from Donetsk to Odeska. And if they will take it, then then will want more.

Ukraine has not yet received enough help from the United States and other allies for Russia to begin to reckon with it.

Russia has not yet been forced to compensate Ukraine for not a single killed or wounded, not a single destroyed house, apartment or office. Complete impunity encourages to continue to do so.

(2014 год).

Now about love. This is the kind of love shown by our soldiers, saving Ukrainians in order from danger to be killed, crippled and plundered, saving houses of their fellow citizens. They is risking their own lives shed their blood in order to protect the lives of other people.

 

[Jamdoc]

What can you do with..

Roman 13:10 "Love does not do evil (wrong) to its neighbor"

..other than become a total pacifist?

My question is why is this focused on the Ukrainians, who are defending themselves from an invading force, and not the hostile invading force? It's Russia that is clearly in the wrong here. Ukraine is right to defend themselves as Russians have mistreated Ukrainians when they were part of the USSR, ever heard of the Holodonor? The Russians under Stalin caused a man made famine that killed millions of Ukrainians, to squash a Ukrainian independence movement.

Jesus said to turn the other cheek when you're slapped, you know, minor conflict, insult, not serious harm, but when He was going to be ascending to heaven He told His disciples to buy swords.
Even under old testament law, if you catch a thief breaking into your home, and you smite them and they die? You did nothing immoral or sinful. It's defense.
I mean, if that thief survived your attack when you were defending your home, THEY paid for the damage breaking in, and if they couldn't pay? They were sold into slavery.

You're expected to take insults, and you're expected to lay down your life for the gospel if you're in persecution, or evangelizing in a mission in a hostile place, but nowhere in the bible is total pacifism of not even defending yourself when robbed or assaulted taught.

 

[dqhall]

My question is why is this focused on the Ukrainians, who are defending themselves from an invading force, and not the hostile invading force? It's Russia that is clearly in the wrong here. Ukraine is right to defend themselves as Russians have mistreated Ukrainians when they were part of the USSR, ever heard of the Holodonor? The Russians under Stalin caused a man made famine that killed millions of Ukrainians, to squash a Ukrainian independence movement.

Jesus said to turn the other cheek when you're slapped, you know, minor conflict, insult, not serious harm, but when He was going to be ascending to heaven He told His disciples to buy swords.
Even under old testament law, if you catch a thief breaking into your home, and you smite them and they die? You did nothing immoral or sinful. It's defense.
I mean, if that thief survived your attack when you were defending your home, THEY paid for the damage breaking in, and if they couldn't pay? They were sold into slavery.

You're expected to take insults, and you're expected to lay down your life for the gospel if you're in persecution, or evangelizing in a mission in a hostile place, but nowhere in the bible is total pacifism of not even defending yourself when robbed or assaulted taught.

Before Christianity was legalized by Eperor Constantine, Christians were arrested and led to the Coliseum in Rome to be fed to the lions in front of thousands of spectator. They were not part of an insurrection.

John 18:36 “Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews.”

Luke 14:31 “Or what king, as he goes to encounter another king in war, will not sit down first and consider whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? 32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sends an envoy, and asks for conditions of peace.“

 

[Jamdoc]

Before Christianity was legalized by Eperor Constantine, Christians were arrested and led to the Coliseum in Rome to be fed to the lions in front of thousands of spectator. They were not part of an insurrection.

John 18:36 “Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews.”

Luke 14:31 “Or what king, as he goes to encounter another king in war, will not sit down first and consider whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? 32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sends an envoy, and asks for conditions of peace.“

I already said, you're told to lay down your lives for the sake of the Gospel and your faith, you're not told to just let robbers murder you and your family. When it comes to the Christian persecution, the idea was always the Christians could be spared death if they renounced Christ. When given that choice, you choose Christ over your own life.

But Russia's not saying "renounce Christ or we'll invade" Russia's just out for a land grab.

and it should be said that OP never at all questioned how Russia, which claims the Russian Orthodox Church, claims Christ, and even claims that this is a "holy war" is not "loving their neighbor" when they're invading them, murdering civilians, putting people in torture chambers, and kidnapping civilians into Russia.

Like how OP is targeting the Ukrainians for defending themselves but silent about the Russian aggression is really messed up, sorry to say.

 

[Rescued One]

@ValeriyK2022, thank you VERY much for sharing! I'm an older woman here in the U. S.. I want you to know that I'm praying for the Ukraine and I pray for those who can send the right weapons to do so quickly. It breaks my heart to hear of anyone's suffering.

 

[The Liturgist]

I already said, you're told to lay down your lives for the sake of the Gospel and your faith, you're not told to just let robbers murder you and your family. When it comes to the Christian persecution, the idea was always the Christians could be spared death if they renounced Christ. When given that choice, you choose Christ over your own life.

But Russia's not saying "renounce Christ or we'll invade" Russia's just out for a land grab.

and it should be said that OP never at all questioned how Russia, which claims the Russian Orthodox Church, claims Christ, and even claims that this is a "holy war" is not "loving their neighbor" when they're invading them, murdering civilians, putting people in torture chambers, and kidnapping civilians into Russia.

Like how OP is targeting the Ukrainians for defending themselves but silent about the Russian aggression is really messed up, sorry to say.

What’s really messed up is that people continue to vandalize the local parish churches of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia, which has a substantial ethnic Ukrainian membership, and indeed which was until this year led by an ethnic Ukrainian, Metropolitan Hilarion Kapral, who sadly died in May of cancer, and which has contributed vast sums to assisting displaced Ukrainian refugees in Poland.

There is no justification for hating Russian or Ukrainian or any other people on the basis of nationality or the unwarranted bellicose actions of a totalitarian regime, and the Christian objective with regards to this tragedy must be peace and reconciliation.

 

[The Liturgist]

They are loving their neighbors by protecting them.

This is entirely right. There is no immorality in terms of protecting people. Indeed if we go back to the fourth century, St. Athanasius, the great defender of the doctrine of the Trinity, stated that military service is honorable. The safety and defense of others I would argue is not proscribed by the Christian obligation to turn the other cheek.

 

[The Liturgist]

Before Christianity was legalized by Eperor Constantine, Christians were arrested and led to the Coliseum in Rome to be fed to the lions in front of thousands of spectator. They were not part of an insurrection.

John 18:36 “Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews.”

Luke 14:31 “Or what king, as he goes to encounter another king in war, will not sit down first and consider whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? 32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sends an envoy, and asks for conditions of peace.“

This is also true. The scenario here is an evil and immoral conflict, but at the same time we cannot criticize those who have been compelled by circumstances to defend their families, etc. It’s not quite the same as the wholesale persecution of Christians by the Roman Empire or the Soviet Union.

 

[Lukaris]

The Ukrainians are not fighting the innocent people among the Russians but soldiers ( who are not necessarily all bad either) but have coercive orders to kill Ukrainians whether combatants or civilians ( not to mention Iranian & Chechen mercenaries in the Russian ranks).


The Orthodox Church has always been challenged by the onset of war & military use. What is coming out of the Moscow Patriarch is best avoided as being sound.

https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...5f9619a44985c8f14/1520186319447/12_Karras.pdf

A Russian Orthodox priest opposed to the war ( link in Russian but translation to English when accessed):


МАРАН АФА Блог Иоанна Бурдина

 

[dqhall]

This is also true. The scenario here is an evil and immoral conflict, but at the same time we cannot criticize those who have been compelled by circumstances to defend their families, etc. It’s not quite the same as the wholesale persecution of Christians by the Roman Empire or the Soviet Union.

One young couple saw Ukraine being surrounded by the Russian military and fled to the EU. The young lady spoke English and Ukranian. She was interviewed. They had a frightening journey as the war almost closed in on them. Not many days later Kiev closed the border allowing women and children to flee, but not men 18-60. Conscription aged men were barred from leaving.

 

[Jamdoc]

What’s really messed up is that people continue to vandalize the local parish churches of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia, which has a substantial ethnic Ukrainian membership, and indeed which was until this year led by an ethnic Ukrainian, Metropolitan Hilarion Kapral, who sadly died in May of cancer, and which has contributed vast sums to assisting displaced Ukrainian refugees in Poland.

There is no justification for hating Russian or Ukrainian or any other people on the basis of nationality or the unwarranted bellicose actions of a totalitarian regime, and the Christian objective with regards to this tragedy must be peace and reconciliation.

Yeah, it's justified for the Ukrainians to defend themselves and push the Russians out of their country, but nobody should be attacking Russian nationals abroad as tourists or people on green cards or the Russian Orthodox Church, ultimately what people want is for peace to return with Ukraine's territory intact.

 

[chilehed]

So my question is, how can Christian Ukrainians in Ukraine right now shoot and kill Russians who are literally their neighbors...

You mean besides the fact that they're being murdered by an unjust aggressor? What other reason does there need to be? Surely you don't think that legitimate Christian thought would hold that people must allow themselves to be murdered.

 

[ValeriyK2022]

One young couple saw Ukraine being surrounded by the Russian military and fled to the EU. The young lady spoke English and Ukranian. She was interviewed. They had a frightening journey as the war almost closed in on them. Not many days later Kiev closed the border allowing women and children to flee, but not men 18-60. Conscription aged men were barred from leaving.

Before the war, 38-40 million people lived in Ukraine. Europe was able to accommodate about 7 million. Of these 7 million, more than half have already returned to Ukraine, because the EU does not have the resources to feed, clothe, shelter for so many people. Some people are lucky. But not everyone can go EU. There is nowhere to go.

Russia is destroying homes to increase the number of refugees. This is also their weapon. And poor people have nowhere to go...

The more the West helps, the less our people die both on the front lines and in the rear. God has now placed us in dependence on the mercy of the inhabitants of Western countries.

We understand that you have to sacrifice comfort. But it can to save the lives of hundreds of thousands of our people.

 

[ValeriyK2022]

Anyone who knows the Russian language, I advise you to listen to this priest's sermon. He talks about "brainwashing" by propaganda and the analogy between:
1)by members of the sect in Jonestown, who committed suicide (1978);
2) by the German people during World War II;
3) the Russian people now.
No one is against the Russian people as a whole. But their propaganda has worked so well that by killing brothers (even former ones) they think they are doing good.