If Jesus was a Politician....

[zephcom]

It absolutely would not be the case that he would support Bernie, for that would be to renounce the Commandments which he referred to during his public ministry as still in force.

That may leave only the other guy, given the choice you offered us; but really, nothing about Christ except the admonition to give unto Caesar what which is Caesar's came close to being about politics.

As I recall Jesus said that He fulfilled the Law of the Old Testament and then instituted His own Two Great Commandments. And that His Two Commandments were the hook from which ALL of the Law and Prophets hung from.

My two options has a person who's political stance is to lift others up and a person who's political stance is to push others down.

IMMHO, it is inconceivable that Jesus would reject the candidate who lifts others up while accepting the candidate who pushes people down. But that is just my understanding of the person the Bible calls Jesus. Clearly there are people who hold a much darker vision of Jesus than I do.

 

[Albion]

As I recall Jesus said that He fulfilled the Law of the Old Testament and then instituted His own Two Great Commandments. And that His Two Commandments were the hook from which ALL of the Law and Prophets hung from.

Yes, there are those two Commandments, but they do not set aside the Decalogue as given to Moses. To think otherwise would be very much a minority belief among Christians and Christian churches.

My two options has a person who's political stance is to lift others up and a person who's political stance is to push others down.

If you wish, but Christ was not involved in politics nor did he urge his followers to do that.

IMMHO, it is inconceivable that Jesus would reject the candidate who lifts others up while accepting the candidate who pushes people down. But that is just my understanding of the person the Bibles call Jesus.

Well, to the extent that he would do this, it is because of what the person does or did, not because of some political party or office or voting mechanism, etc. If you push people down, that is you doing wrong. If you help people up, that is Godly. None of it presupposes involvement in government.

 

[zephcom]

Yes, there are those two Commandments, but they do not set aside the Decalogue as given to Moses. To think otherwise would be very much a minority belief among Christians and Christian churches.


If you wish, but Christ was not involved in politics nor did he urge his followers to do that.



Well, to the extent that he would do this, it is because of what the person does or did, not because of some political party or office or voting mechanism, etc. If you push people down, that is you doing wrong. If you help people up, that is Godly. None of it presupposes involvement in government.

Jesus didn't 'set aside' the Ten Commands. He 'fulfilled' them and all the rest of the Jewish requirements. His Two Commandments are not only the Commandments His followers are told to comply with, but...by His own words...cover all the Law and the Prophets.

You can argue with me all you like about how the Ten Commandments are still in force for everyone, but it remains that it was Jesus who said that all of the Law and Prophets hang from His Two Commandments. -If- you do His Two Commandments, you have completed everything required of you under the old Laws.

Jesus was not involved in politics, I grant that. Today's Christians are involved...heavily involved...in politics. And I don't think that has any bearing on my discussion. My discussion is that -if- were involved in politics, His involvement would look more like Bernie Sanders and less like Donald Trump. And we can infer that from His teachings and His life.

Governments, especially democracies and democratic republics, tend to reflect the personality of their voters. Had the Romans given the people the opportunity to cast ballots for governmental leaders, are you suggesting Jesus wouldn't vote? I don't see that in any of His teachings.

 

[Albion]

Jesus was not involved in politics, I grant that. Today's Christians are involved...heavily involved...in politics. And I don't think that has any bearing on my discussion. My discussion is that -if- were involved in politics, His involvement would look more like Bernie Sanders and less like Donald Trump. And we can infer that from His teachings and His life.

IF Jesus were not like Jesus, what would he be doing? Hmm. Whatever we speculate in reply to that question, it isn't about Jesus.

 

[TheBear]

Which side would he lean to? What party would he belong to?

I think Jesus would be leaning towards socialism, caring for his neighbour and making sure everyone had there fair share. And of course he would be a strong environmentalist, actually he would have a passion for it. And wouldn't he welcome all people to his nation, he loves all people, doesn't he?

In Australia he would be a member of the Greens, as described above. Maybe this is a left leaning Democrat in the USA?

Funny isn't it when you consider many Christians do not have the same beliefs. I'm no expert on American politics but doesn't the majority of the 'Bible Belt' vote Republican?

Are you a socialist?

Just curious...

 

[zephcom]

IF Jesus were not like Jesus, what would he be doing? Hmm. Whatever we speculate in reply to that question, it isn't about Jesus.

I didn't say anything about 'IF Jesus were not like Jesus..." Jesus wasn't given the opportunity to be involved in politics. Speculating on what He would have done if he HAD been given the opportunity has no implication that I was talking about something which He wasn't.

After all, Jesus wasn't married either.

 

[Madsaac]

No I'm not a socialist but I'm left leaning.

So many cop out responses here. By the way Jesus was very political, how could he make people follow him and see the light if he wasn't?

Let me ask the question again in a different way, if Jesus was around today, who would he vote for?
1. Party 'A' that distributes wealth more evenly or not (Party B)?
2. Party 'A' that welcomes all people to the land country or closes borders (Party B)?
3. Party 'A' that cares for the environment or ignores it (Party B)?
4. Party 'A' that discriminates against people with different coloured skin or not (Party B)?
5. Party 'A' that doesn't respect females as much as males or not (Party B) ?

I know some of you will say that its somewhere in the middle but if Jesus HAD to make a choice, which party?

Answers
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.

 

[Strathos]

Jesus would not approve of any modern day government. After all, when He returns the entire world is going to have a completely new government

Please stop using Christianity to push political agendas. Your favorite politicians are not divinely ordained.

 

[zephcom]

Jesus would not approve of any modern day government. After all, when He returns the entire world is going to have a completely new government

Please stop using Christianity to push political agendas. Your favorite politicians are not divinely ordained.

And which millennium is He going to return??? After two thousand years of promises, that one is getting really tired. Governments will be with us as long as humans survive, they are a necessary evil.

You would be better to ask the Christians to stop pushing political agendas. I don't have a church or a pulpit. And, at least -I- didn't claim -my- favorite politician is divinely ordained.

 

[Albion]

I didn't say anything about 'IF Jesus were not like Jesus..." Jesus wasn't given the opportunity to be involved in politics.

That is what it amounts to if the question is about a hypothetical situation. Not only a hypothetical decision on his part, but a hypothetical setting as well.

After all, Jesus wasn't married either.

But presumably Jesus could have married if he had chosen. He could not have gotten into politics or even played the role that our citizen voters do and he showed no interest in opposing the government anyway, being compliant even in the face of execution.

 

[Strathos]

And which millennium is He going to return???

No one knows the day or the hour. It could be in 5 minutes or in 20 billion years.

 

[zephcom]

That is what it amounts to if the question is about a hypothetical situation. Not only a hypothetical decision on his part, but a hypothetical setting as well.


But presumably Jesus could have married if he had chosen. He could not have gotten into politics or even played the role that our citizen voters do and he showed no interest in opposing the government anyway, being compliant even in the face of execution.

The beauty of Jesus' teachings is that they are designed to deduce the right decision regardless of the actual setting the decision is made in. Jesus USED hypothetical situations in His teaching. That is what makes Jesus' teachings timeless, they are not tied to any one era or any one government or even to any one religion.

This thread is just another version of "What would Jesus do? (WWJD)" And what Jesus would do is choose the option which best matched His teachings on Divine Love. He would favor the candidate which better demonstrated Divine Love because His teachings on Divine Love transcends all the changes in lifestyles, governments, religions and anything else which is different now than when He walked the earth.

-I- suspect that many people are uncomfortable with this discussion and want to limit the influence of Jesus' teachings to restrict them from applying in this case because they, on some level of thinking, understand they have not supported candidates which pass the test of WWJD. But that is just my opinion.

 

[zephcom]

No one knows the day or the hour. It could be in 5 minutes or in 20 billion years.

Basically, that means no one should be counting on that in their lifetime. Yet virtually even generation for well over a thousand years has been -sure- they will be the ones who will get to see this event happen.

Experience tells us that we -should- just ignore the whole 'return thing' and concentrate on living the life Jesus taught us to live and not pretend we are the chosen ones.

 

[Albion]

No I'm not a socialist but I'm left leaning.

So many cop out responses here. By the way Jesus was very political, how could he make people follow him and see the light if he wasn't?

Here's a suggestion. If anyone wants to push this ^point which others, including myself, have said just is not accurate...

...maybe it would be best to prove this to be true before moving onto all the political issues and fine points that one poster or another has turned to in order to show which political party Jesus supposedly would favor.

 

[Albion]

This thread is just another version of "What would Jesus do? (WWJD)" And what Jesus would do is choose the option which best matched His teachings on Divine Love.

As I recall the WWJD movement, its idea was to match the Scripture record with current problems, etc.

In this thread, we are asked to suppose that Jesus were not the Jesus of Scripture at all, but to guess about his preferences if we were to alter the Scripture account of his life and times.

If that is the challenge, and these are the groundrules, it is possible to make out that Jesus would do just about anything the speaker wants to picture him doing today.

 

[zephcom]

As I recall the WWJD movement, its idea was to match the Scripture record with current problems, etc.

In this thread, we are asked to suppose that Jesus were not the Jesus of Scripture at all, but to guess about his preferences if we were to alter the Scripture account of his life and times.

If that is the challenge, and these are the groundrules, it is possible to make out that Jesus would do just about anything the speaker wants to picture him doing today.

Not true at all. WWJD is based on Jesus, not the adopted Scripture in total. The acronym is not WWTBD.

Jesus did not leave a law book which includes direct commands and lists upon lists of exceptions. The problem with the Jewish Law was that it was unable respond to changing conditions as time marched forward. It was stuck in ancient times and was becoming a mill stone around the necks of the Jews.

Jesus taught a higher level of spirituality in which we are granted the permission to use our own understanding of His teachings as a guide for our lives. That is the thing which makes His teaching timeless. When one lives this higher level of spirituality, one uses the teachings and life of Jesus, as recorded in the Bible, as a guide to understanding how to implement His Two Great Commandments. No one is altering how the Bible presents Jesus, they are only using the Bible's representation of Jesus to provide guidance on how we should be behaving in today's situations.

In regard to politics, -I- think it is clear from the Bible's description of Jesus along with His wish that we follow His Commandments, that we should be voting for the candidates who will work for the betterment of the people they will be responsible for regardless of the impact on ourselves.

That is what self-sacrificing love is all about. If we cast ballots using the principles outlined by Jesus, we cast ballots which lifts others up even at our own expense. That is what Jesus taught, it is what He did and, IMMHO, what He would do today because His teachings are timeless.

 

[Albion]

Not true at all. WWJD is based on Jesus, not the adopted Scripture in total. The acronym is not WWTBD.

I disagree. The WWJD campaign was about us putting into practice that which Jesus taught and did himself. The record of that is the Bible.

We here have not established that Jesus WAS in fact personally interested in political action or that he recommended involvement in political action to his followers.

 

[zephcom]

I disagree. The WWJD campaign was about us putting into practice that which Jesus taught and did himself. The record of that is the Bible.

We here have not established that Jesus WAS in fact personally interested in political action or that he recommended involvement in political action to his followers.

My bad, I misread what you said. I thought you were implying using all the Bible as guide to WWJD. Sorry.

IMMHO, I don't think it is necessary that Jesus be personally interested in political action or that He recommended involvement in political action to His followers for us to apply His teachings to any involvement a Follower may have in politics two thousand years later.

The beauty of a teaching which is timeless is that it can apply to changing conditions and situations. Jesus, as a Jew, was living in an occupied country in which the option of self-governance didn't exist for either Him or His followers. He wouldn't be teaching anyone about self-governance since it wasn't an option.

But that should not preclude people two thousand years later from gleaning guidance on self-governance from His teachings. He left ample teachings from which it shouldn't be difficult to understand where He would stand on political issues were He on the earth in OUR situation.

IMMHO, if one cannot be allowed to apply His teachings NOW on situations NOW because Jesus did not make a specific teaching on that situation, His teachings are totally worthless. If His teachings -are- totally worthless, why worship Him???

 

[FireDragon76]

Jesus is already the head of all governments, and the form of governance is a Theocracy. The problem is that the masses reject Him as their ruler, just as the Jews did when they asked Samuel for a king, because they saw the neighboring people groups with kings. God said, the people had not rejected Samuel as their ruler, they had rejected God. And God gave the people what they wanted even though it was one of the worst things the Jews ever chose.

God does not subscribe to any human institution (such as a political party). It is up to humans to ally themselves with God or not.

Christ is not an authoritarian ruler. He rules in the heats of men and women through grace.

 

[Strathos]

Basically, that means no one should be counting on that in their lifetime. Yet virtually even generation for well over a thousand years has been -sure- they will be the ones who will get to see this event happen.

Experience tells us that we -should- just ignore the whole 'return thing' and concentrate on living the life Jesus taught us to live and not pretend we are the chosen ones.

This thread is about the form of government that Jesus would support. Not about what we should be doing in the meantime.