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If Jesus is the TRUE God, who is his SON Jesus?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by edpobre, Sep 27, 2002.

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  1. wblastyn

    wblastyn Jedi Master

    +110
    Agnostic
    Single
    Because He claimed to be the Son of God, THUS EQUAL TO GOD. The Jews had Jesus crucified because He claimed to be God, which the Jews did not believe to be true and considered blasphemous and Jesus did not deny this. :)

    I think that was the point you were trying to make?

    Not when the church fathers knew the apostles personally.
     
  2. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +37


    OldShepherd,

    Haven't you mangled the word of God long enough? Look at what you did to 1 John 5:20. You TORE "Jesus Christ" away from "even in his Son, Jesus Christ" and ADDED it to "This is the true God and eternal life," an entirely SEPARATE sentence.

    You can fool some of the people ALL the time, but you CANNOT fool ALL of the people at all.

    Ed
     
  3. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +37
    Originally posted by wblastyn
    From whom did you learn this? You are accusing Jesus of BLASPHEMY like what the Jews did!

    BLASPHEMY is a crime committed by a MAN who claims to be God.

    Jesus said he is a MAN (John 8:40). By saying that Jesus CLAIMED equality with God, you are saying (like the Jews) that Jesus, being a MAN made himself God. Is this how you show your love for Jesus?

    Jesus NEVER claimed he is equal to God. Jesus NEVER claimed he was God. Jesus ONLY said God was his Father (John 5:18). Jesus ONLY said "I am the Son of God" (John 10:36).

    God SAID that Jesus is His SON in whom He is well-pleased (Matt. 3:17; Matt. 17:5). If being a Son of God MEANS equality with God, are you saying that God was acknowledging ANOTHER God when Jesus was baptized? This is CONTRARY to what God had already declared - that there is NO God like Him (Is. 44:8; Is. 45:5-6; Is. 46:9). Do you believe that God would CONTRADICT Himself in this matter?

    God SAYS he does NOT change (Mal. 3:6). God also says that He makes good what He has spoken (Numbers 23:19).

    Ed
     
  4. Gunny

    Gunny Remnant Supporter

    +88
    Christian
    Married
     
  5. Kain

    Kain Varpatrol

    175
    +4
    Claiming to be the son of God doesn't make one equal with God. Jesus himself claimed to have less authority thus, less equal than God.

    The Jews were angered because Jesus claimed to be the messiah, that he spoke for God, and God worked through him.

    Jesus denied his divinity by saying the Father worked through him.
    Jesus denied his divinity by prayig to his God, the Father.
     
  6. OldBadfish

    OldBadfish Well-Known Member

    +20
    Yes, Jesus is our God.

    So who won this thread? Which side holds the most evidence?
     
  7. Gunny

    Gunny Remnant Supporter

    +88
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    God's inerrant Word wins the thread.
     
  8. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

    +218
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    booth!  Where do you see me saying in my quote that I said the Apostles were wrong??!!  If your going to participate in a normal discussion/debate you need to stop twisting the words of your opponent!  There is a difference from the Apostles and the church fathers!  Get it right the next time before jumbing to conclusions!
    OK, booth, enough of your own words as to Jesus claiming to be equal with God, show me the scriptures why don't you?!  This is something you fail to do everytime you debate either me or Ed!  We have proven from scripture many times over and over the fact that He has never claimed to be God!  If you want proof, just click in my profile and look up my posts if you want! 
    Wrong again booth, the scripture that I quoted you does not define Jesus as God and man!  it defines him as a man!  As usual your twisting the scriptures to justify your false doctrine!  2 John 1:7, "For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist." It we make Christ an all-powerful, all-knowing, untemptable co-equal part of the Supreme God, we deny that he has come "in the flesh" and we are manifested as anti-Christ's.  Weather you trinitarians know it or not you are doing the very thing John warned his readers in this passage!  You are belittling Christ.  Most trinitarians are vey well meaning in what they teach, however, this is a serious error on their part that they are not very well aware of most of the time. 
    1 Corinthians 15:24,28, "Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father...And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all." The Son shall be subject to God, that God may be all in all. Jesus has been given all power in heaven and earth (Matthew 28:18) for the accomplishment of a purpose - that of bringing all things into harmony with God. When that purpose is accomplished, he relinquishes all power to God, that God may be all in all.
    As you can see booth, here is the scriptural proof!  What scriptures are you relying on to back up your traditional theory?

    That's because Jesus was a "man made strong" (Psalms 80:17); a man specially and divinely begotten by the eternal Spirit-Power of God; a man in whom God dwelt, and through whom God spoke and worked and manifested Himself; a man who recognized that of himself he could do nothing - that all power, wisdom and goodness was of God, a man who rendered perfect submission and obedience to God - "Not my will, but Thine, be done" (Luke 22:42).

    Your not making any sence whatsoever here booth! It's no wonder trinitarians are so confused and this is one of the big reasons I put it to the test about a year ago and now I can see it for the false teaching that it is!  No matter how you wrestle with the doctrine of the Trinity, it cannot give you anything but an all-powerful, all-knowing, immortal, untemptable God going through the pantomime of pretending to grow, pretending to learn, pretending to overcome weakness, pretending to struggle with temptation, pretending to pray for help, pretending to receive strength through angels from a part of himself, pretending to receive commands and instruction (from himself), pretending to obey and submit his will to a co-equal part of himself.
    Jesus used parables to convey a spiritual message.  As for how much I read my bible, it's a matter of how you and I read the same bible.  I read mine by subordinating the interpretations of men to second place, how about you?

    This seems to be your usual response with no scripture to back up anything you say booth!  I never claim to be right, but I do know that the scripture is right!  Actually booth, it's a lot easier to remain ignorant of the docrinal truths found in the bible in order to remain in good standing with men.  I chose to put these unsound doctrines to the test of the scriptures.  I don't think it's pride to test the spirits to see if they are of God. 
     
  9. npetreley

    npetreley pumpkin sailor

    +2
    Pardon me if someone brought this up, already, but my favorite scripture for this topic is the one which shows Jesus identifying Himself as G~d, not the verses I've seen most people cite.

    "I am" says it all. And the fact that they were about to stone Him for saying it tells you they know exactly what He meant.
     
  10. OldBadfish

    OldBadfish Well-Known Member

    +20
    "I am"

    Exactly :)

    Hard concept, and humans cannot fully comprehend, we are not meant to. Just know that Jesus is our God according to the bible.
     
  11. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

    +218
    Atheist
    Private
    fraid not! One verse doesn't say it all! And if your like most trinitarian defenders like I was, you probably have many so called proof texts that are used to falsely justify this false docrine.

    quote by badfish:
    Yes, Jesus is our God.So who won this thread? Which side holds the most evidence?

    Jesus never said He was God! Son of God is what He said often! As for which side holds the most evidence, I would prefer the scriptures over the traditions of men!

    John 18:5-8, "They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am [he]. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them. As soon then as he had said unto them, I am [he], they went backward, and fell to the ground. Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus answered, I have told you that I am [he]: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:"
    Do you see Jesus saying He is God in this passage? Be honest with your answer. If you answer yes, your listening to the opinions of men..... It is very clear in this passage that Jesus is saying He is Jesus of Nazareth.

    Jesus was given his authority by the Father to exercise the Father's Will. For example, when Jesus spoke the words "Lazarus, come forth," and raised Lazarus from the dead, it was really the Father working through Jesus . Similarly, when Jesus spoke those words "I am," He was speaking as if he was the Father himself. You must understand the role of an ambassador.

    If only one passage say it all, then how about this one:

    1 Timothy 2:5, "For there is one God , and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus ;"

    The Bible is chuck full of similar passages that continually refutes trinitarianism.....
     
  12. fieldsofwind

    fieldsofwind Well-Known Member

    +11
    Christian
    as said earlier... I know my Father... I believe Him... I know His Son... I know who He is... He is the Living God.

    I do not believe men's wisdom... or my own... I believe a voice... that is it... His sheep know His voice.

    This is a quote from another poster:"Claiming to be the son of God doesn't make one equal with God. Jesus himself claimed to have less authority thus, less equal than God."

    Christ made Himself nothing... made Himself less than God to become the sacrifice... can God be killed... can God be hurt??? No... God became a man... He was killed... He was hurt... He was tempted... He did rise... He prayed to the Father, and He said that He is the First and the Last... the Beginning and the End... The Alpha and the Omega... The KING of KINGS and LORD of LORDS.... what does that LORD mean??? How can two things finish a race in first place unless they were of equal speed??? How can Christ claim to be First if He wasn't... I believe Him... He is God who became a man.

    Believe... (and yes... phil 2 says that Christ "who being in very nature God.. not the nature of God... I believe in the copy of the Bible that I have.... I believe God when He tells me to believ it... I believe that He has kept it His word... I believe)

    those that say God doesn not change... you're right... Did He change when He became a man... while at the same time being God the Father in heaven??? Did the Father change... Christ=all the fulness of the diety in bodily form, having become a man so as to become the ultimate sacrifice. The Father=The diety unchanging the LORD.... I simply believe it... I do not limit what God can do

    Believe
     
  13. fieldsofwind

    fieldsofwind Well-Known Member

    +11
    Christian
    franklin... so you think every time Jesus identified himself as Jesus of Nazareth that everyone fell to the ground???

    be honest...
     
  14. fieldsofwind

    fieldsofwind Well-Known Member

    +11
    Christian
    yes Christ, who became a man... also became the mediator between God and men when He became the sacrifice that sets us free.

    If He is not God... then it's all meaningless

    God became a man...

    I believe Him
     
  15. Kain

    Kain Varpatrol

    175
    +4
    The relavent title for God used in Exodus is "I am who I am."

    The Greek word above translated conveniently as "I am" is, in the context of other verses understood to be "I am he." The same words are used by people other than Christ.

    In proper wording, the verse becomes "Before Abraham came to be, I am he"

    This verse has Jesus telling the Jews that God's divine plan for the messiah existed before Abraham and manifested in him.

    Other support for this interpretation can be found in Revelations.

    Rev 13:8
    And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    As you can see here, Jesus wasn't literally slain before the foundation of the world. This is another example that shows a divine plan of God concerning the messiah that existed before Christ was born.

    You don't have to accept this interpretation. But by not doing so, you call Jesus himself a liar who said only the Father is God. "Only" is an exclusive word.
     
  16. Kain

    Kain Varpatrol

    175
    +4
    Actually, if he is God, then it's all meaningless. See the post concerning this by Franklin above.
     
  17. Se7en

    Se7en hasta la victoria siempre

    44
    +0
    Agnostic
    Single
    US-Others
    Can someone show me where CHRIST HIMSELF says that He is God, the Father is God, and the Holy Spirit is God...that they comprise the Holy Trinity of the Godhead...and that belief in this trinity is necessary for salvation?
     
  18. fieldsofwind

    fieldsofwind Well-Known Member

    +11
    Christian
    naa kain.... i'd like to see your answer

    believe
     
  19. Kain

    Kain Varpatrol

    175
    +4
    Too lazy to look it up? No matter, since I agree with it, I'll quote him


    Franklin:
     
  20. fieldsofwind

    fieldsofwind Well-Known Member

    +11
    Christian
    nope... not pretending... see.. He became a man... awsome isn't it.

    You don't think that He can do that??? God can't do that???

    He did...

    I believe
     
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