If Jesus is the TRUE God, who is his SON Jesus?

[edpobre]

Originally posted by OldShepherd
If that is true then what was Cyprian quoting in 250 AD? Click link below to verify quote. What you are referring to is the standard anti-Christian/Trinitarian argument which is usually accepted without question as you have done. Anyone who is interested in the truth can do a quick little search online and find some 30-40 manuscripts which have this verse, all many years prior to the printing press.

Cyprian (250 AD) Treatise I On The Unity of the church.
The Lord says, "I and the Father are one; " and again it is written of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, "And these three are one." And does any one believe that this unity which thus comes from the divine strength and coheres in celestial sacraments, can be divided in the Church, and can be separated by the parting asunder of opposing wills? He who does not hold this unity does not hold God's law, does not hold the faith of the Father and the Son, does not hold life and salvation.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-05/anf05-111.htm#P6832_2190664

OldShepherd,

Are you so BLIND that you cannot SEE what Cyprian was QUOTING? He said: "...of the Father, and of the son and of the Holy Spirit." Is 1 John 5:7 WRITTEN this way? You really must be BLIND!

Cyprian was QUOTING Matthew 28:19 my friend! And if you look at the title of the Treatise, you will SEE that the treatise is about the UNITY of the church, NOT the unity of the THREE "persons" AKA "Gods" into ONE God.

Ed

 

[fieldsofwind]

Ed.. if the Word of God is not Christ, then what does Rev 19:13-16 tell you.

you have missed what God did... He made Himself a nothing, becoming a man... yes... He prayed to the Father just as I do... He became a man... it is the key to the entire reason that He became the final sacrifice.

He has told us that only the Father knows the hour of His return, which is a result of the position that Christ gave Himself. He is God, yet still retains the scars of the cross. I don't claim to know all of the complexities involved in what really took place when God became a man... But I know that Jesus has told me who He is.... and I Worship He who is the Living God.

 

[OldShepherd]

Posted by ElPobre
Are you so BLIND that you cannot SEE what Cyprian was QUOTING? He said: "...of the Father, and of the son and of the Holy Spirit." Is 1 John 5:7 WRITTEN this way? You really must be BLIND!

Cyprian was QUOTING Matthew 28:19 my friend! And if you look at the title of the Treatise, you will SEE that the treatise is about the UNITY of the church, NOT the unity of the THREE "persons" AKA "Gods" into ONE God.

Maybe you should stick to Tagalog, Pobre, evidently you do not understand English. Notice that there are no quotation marks around “of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,” but there are quotation marks around "And these three are one.". The only place those words, in that order, appear in the Bible is not Matt 28:19 but 1 John 5:7 and Cyprian said those words were written of, i.e. about, the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. And while the treatise is on the unity of the church there is nothing to prevent Cyprian from speaking about the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as he did quoting 1 John 5:7.

As I keep reminding you Pobre if you were truly a disciple of Christ you would not keep up these constant insults. Stick to addressing the issues, from now on I will report you every time you insult me. You may tell me what I post is wrong, false, mistranslated, whatever but I'm tired of you calling me blind, crazy, insane, out of my mind, etc.

Cyprian (250 AD) Treatise I On The Unity of the church.
The Lord says, "I and the Father are one; " and again it is written of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, "And these three are one." And does any one believe that this unity which thus comes from the divine strength and coheres in celestial sacraments, can be divided in the Church, and can be separated by the parting asunder of opposing wills? He who does not hold this unity does not hold God's law, does not hold the faith of the Father and the Son, does not hold life and salvation.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-05...m#P6832_2190664

 

[Se7en]

Ok, no one bit on my little Duality idea so here's a few observations that I think point toward a Dual Godhead:
2 eyes
2 ears
2 legs
2 arms
2 nostrils
2 nipples
2 testicles
2 ovaries
2 sexes (male, female)
2 become 1 through marriage, though not physically (I and my Father are one)
earth and sky
land and water
day and night
sun and moon
...The most important being 2 sexes, as we were made in God's image. If God has three images, i suppose there is a lost human sex running around somewhere.

Let's also consider who begot Christ. I don't think there is any argument that Christ's father was Father God and Christ says the Father is the only true God. However, the Gospel of Luke clearly shows us that the Holy Spirit begot Christ. So either Jesus was confused or the Holy Spirit is the Father's spirit...not some seperate entity, they are one and the same.

I think a case can be made for a Dual Godhead, but a Triune Godhead is really a stretch to my eyes.

 

[Se7en]

1 John 5:7- For there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water an the blood; and these three are in agreement.

That is how 1 John 5:7 correctly reads!

"Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in Heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one... (Not found in any Greek manuscript before the sixteenth century.) "
~NIV Study Bible Textnote.

Isn't it obvious that this was added because the perfection of the printing press by Gutenburg meant that the Catholic church could no longer dictate what people knew and understood of the Bible??? It is not inspired scripture!

 

[franklin]

Originally posted by edpobre
Friends, Most Trinitarians take 1 John 5:20 as PROOF that Jesus is God. Are they correct? If they are correct, WHERE is his son, Jesus Christ?

Ed

"For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel". Jn 5:20

"And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life". 1Jn 5:20

Just thought I'd include Jn 5:20 to compare with 1Jn 5:20..... It seems like the translators did some tampering with 1Jn 5 ?  Scripture is not supposed to contradict scripture.  Conclusion, Jesus is the Son of God, not God the Son, the true God is the father of Jesus. Jesus is not the father of Himself, Jesus!  Huh?! And the beat goes on..... the confusion among the trinity defenders never ceases! It's no wonder they always rely on the old worn out excuse: "This is a complete mystery, you cannot begin to understand it". Sorry, I don't buy it !  Good post Ed!  Keep up the good work brother!

FR

 

[edpobre]

Originally posted by fieldsofwind

Ed.. if the Word of God is not Christ, then what does Rev 19:13-16 tell you.

Rev. 19:13-16 refers to the Son of Man whom apostle John SAW as the one who had "eyes like a flame of fire" (Rev. 1:12-14). The one who sat on a white horse whose "eyes were like a flame of fire" (Rev. 19:11-12) is the Son of Man (Rev. 1:12-14) whose name is called the "Word of God" (Rev. 19:13).

Hence, the "WORD that WAS God" that BECAME the "Son of Man" is NOT Jesus because Jesus is the Son of Man that the "WORD that WAS God" turned into.

you have missed what God did... He made Himself a nothing, becoming a man... yes... He prayed to the Father just as I do... He became a man... it is the key to the entire reason that He became the final sacrifice.

Your belief that God BECAME a MAN is FALSE. There is NO Biblical leg to stand on.

God SAID He ALONE is God (Is. 44:8; Is. 45:5-6; Is. 46:9). God SAID He is NOT a MAN (Numbers 23:19). God SAID He does NOT change (Malachi 3:6).

Jesus SAID the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3).  Jesus SAID he is ascending to HIS God and FATHER (John 20:17).

Jesus CRIED "my God, my God, why have you forsaken me" (Mark 15:34). Jesus CRIED "FATHER, into your hands I commend my spirit" (Luke 23:46).

Jesus is NOT God! Jesus SAID he is a MAN (John 8:40).

He has told us that only the Father knows the hour of His return, which is a result of the position that Christ gave Himself. He is God, yet still retains the scars of the cross. I don't claim to know all of the complexities involved in what really took place when God became a man... But I know that Jesus has told me who He is.... and I Worship He who is the Living God.

You are NOT telling the TRUTH. How can you say that "Jesus has told you who he is" when you DON'T believe what he SAYS in John 8:40 and John 17:3? Did you talk to Jesus personally other than what the Bible says? Did Jesus talk to you in a dream?

Tell us how Jesus told you who he is.

Ed

 

[Kain]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"A man-god is a man-god no matter what you like to call its name."

Nope, none of them claimed 2 natures, big difference.

Neither did Jesus.

"That right there proves that Jesus wasn't God."

you misunderstand. He was God he just limited himself. Just like you limited yourself to bad spelling by typing that right instead of that's right...although Christ did it on purpose

There is no verse that states God limited Himself. The closest thing you have is the word that was with God, but transfered onto a man (thus not being God anymore). This basically says that God had a plan and He revealed it through the man, Jesus.

"Either those verses are wrong or the creed is wrong. "

Yes, they can both be right. you're taking them out of context.

I disagree. I've viewed the whole thing in context and the creed is off. It's simply a contradiction that can't be remedied elsewhere.

"If you take the rest of John fully in context, the trinity interpretation of the early parts of John would be in contradiction. "

not really. The book of john is quite specific in saying christ is God.

Only if you interpret it while looking for a trinity.

"The early Christians weren't trinitarians"

yes they were. It was discussed I'm sure. Mention of it was made long before the 325 "meeting". The meeting was to make it offical, like you and I getting together and declaring mozart as a good composer..duh!

Yes, I'm sure. That's why they came up with 2 at first, but then decided on 3 after a couple decades. That's not sound doctrine, that's an evolution of a trinity over time.

"Numbers 23:19)"

Christ didn't lie, or change his mind about what that verse talks about. So you've proved nothing. Context...its something you're lacking.

Here is the context. God has an eternal covenant. God is unchanging. Christ changed and discarded some laws. That's not clarifying, that's altering.

"I Samuel 15:29"

now you're just doing bad translation.

Right, you have the right translation, while everyone who disagrees obviously has the wrong translation. I don't buy it.

The bible consistantly says one, one, one. Not three in one.

 

[Kain]

Originally posted by OldShepherd
Bintheredunthatgotthetshirtdontfit. That is the exact same Jewish Encyclopedia I have been quoting. The only difference is I was quoting from the hard bound set in my local library. If you will click on your own link you will see that the article is exactly what I have been quoting. Here is the specific link to the Zohar subsection. Read the first sentence in that section until you understand it.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=338&letter=T

You've been quoting a summary.

The article shows I've been right all along. The trinity in the Cabala was found over 1000 years after Christianity. The clarification of the article shows that the actual trinity found in the Cabala is weak, a matter of Christian interpretation. Also that the Jews don't consider the trinity a true doctrine.

The article disproves nothing I've said, while it proves wrong some things you've said.

Since you fail to comprehend this, even from the main article in the encyclopedia, I can't continue to argue the concept. The links are there for any educated person to find out for themselves. You have hardened your heart on this matter.

May you find enlightenment.

edit <addendum> The proofs presented below are from the Jewish Encyclopedia and reveal that the evolution of the 'trinity' concept developed later than what you first estimated.

On the Zohar

"Emden demonstrates that the Zohar misquotes passages of Scripture; misunderstands the Talmud; contains some ritual observances which were ordained by later rabbinical authorities; mentions the crusades against the Mohammedans (ii. 32a); uses the expression "esnoga" (iii. 232b), which is a Portuguese corruption of "synagogue," and explains it in a cabalistic manner as a compound of the Hebrew words and ; gives a mystical explanation of the Hebrew vowel-points, which were introduced long after the Talmudic period (i. 24b, ii. 116a, iii. 65a)."

On the Cabala

"Abulafia began his fruitful literary activity in 1271;"

"Abulafia's influence upon the further development of the Cabala was rather of a retarding than a fostering nature. He gave it a visionary turn. Owing to his influence there was a growing tendency to juggle with the names of God and angels, and to employ gema&#7789;ria in its most diverse forms. He was the first one, too, to allow the Christian idea of the Trinity to show a faint glimmer in the Cabala."

 

[edpobre]

Originally posted by OldShepherd

Are you so BLIND that you cannot SEE what Cyprian was QUOTING? He said: "...of the Father, and of the son and of the Holy Spirit." Is 1 John 5:7 WRITTEN this way? You really must be BLIND!

Cyprian was QUOTING Matthew 28:19 my friend! And if you look at the title of the Treatise, you will SEE that the treatise is about the UNITY of the church, NOT the unity of the THREE "persons" AKA "Gods" into ONE God.

Maybe you should stick to Tagalog, Pobre, evidently you do not understand English.

&nbsp;

You are GRASPING at straw OldShepherd. You are losing it! I understand John 8:40 and John 17:3 pretty well. How about you?

Do you understand Mark 15:34 and Luke 23:46? In Mark 15:34, Jesus CRIED out, "MY God, MY God, why have you forsaken me?" Nd in Luke 23:46, Jesus CRIED ouT, "FATHER, into your hands I COMMEND my spirit."

Do you understand John 20:17? Jesus SAID he was ASCENDING to HIS God and FATHER. Does this look like Jesus is God?

Notice that there are no quotation marks around “of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,” but there are quotation marks around "And these three are one.". The only place those words, in that order, appear in the Bible is not Matt 28:19 but 1 John 5:7 and Cyprian said those words were written of, i.e. about, the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.&nbsp;&nbsp;And while the treatise is on the unity of the church there is nothing to prevent Cyprian from speaking about the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as he did quoting 1 John 5:7.

Of course, Cyprian was talking about the UNITY of the Church as ALSO he was talking about the UNITY of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

What does UNITY of the church mean as also it applies to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

According to apostle Paul, the church must be like-minded, having the&nbsp;SAME love, being of ONE accord, of ONE mind (Phil. 2:2). The church speaks the&nbsp;SAME thing, perfectly joined together in the SAME mind and the SAME judgment (1 Cor. 1:10).&nbsp;

This is what Jesus meant when he SAID "I and the Father are ONE." And this is what apostle John meant when he said that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are ONE (1 John 5:7) or AGREE as ONE (1 John 5:8).

As I keep reminding you Pobre if you were truly a disciple of Christ you would not keep up these constant insults.

An insult is when you say something that is NOT true. Your saying that I cannot understand English is an insult because as I have shown you, I can understand English better than you do.

If you want proof, tell me how you understand John 8:40 and John 17:3.

If I say you are BLIND, it is NOT an insult because that's true. Jesus says the Father is the ONLY true God (John 17:3). Either you don't undeerstand English or you DON'T see the word "ONLY" referring to the Father as the true God.

Stick to addressing the issues, from now on I will report you every time you insult me. You may tell me what I post is wrong, false, mistranslated, whatever but I'm tired of you calling me blind, crazy, insane, out of my mind, etc.

Don't be a cry-baby OldShepherd. Can you not handle your own battles? If you don't want to be callled blind, then open your eyes and show me you can see. If you don't want to be called crazy, insane or out of your mind, then THINK (at least once) before you open your mouth. That's all I can agree to.

Ed

 

[LouisBooth]

"Neither did Jesus."

Sure he did...100% man, 100% God, its called the incarnation and is accepted by all true christian churches

"There is no verse that states God limited Himself. "

You just haven't read closely enough then. Phil 2:5-8 show us Christ taking on the role of a servant, though he was in the very nature of God. He limited himself. It says that very clear in verse 7.."but made himself nothing..."


"It's simply a contradiction that can't be remedied elsewhere."

noooooo you dont' WANT it to be remedied. Looking at the context you can do that quite easily. The comparison being made was the deeds of God versus the deeds of men. God is perfect and his deeds are perfect, men are not perfect and their deeds are not perfect. It is not setting up the comparison you say. You just take it out of context to twist your way to a answer you want, not the answer in the text, which is trinity.


"Only if you interpret it while looking for a trinity."

Nope, a person that has no knowledge of trinity at all would read it that exact way. I have seen that myself

"That's not sound doctrine, that's an evolution of a trinity over time."

Nope, not anymore then physics devoloping over time. they always were there, people are just discovering them now. They discovered trinity long before the 325 meeting.

"Christ changed and discarded some laws. "

LOL, no he didn't, he clarified them and he said himself he didn't change the law only came to fufill it. Again, you're not reading.

"The bible consistantly says one, one, one. Not three in one."

I totally agree, God is one, Christ is God, Holy Spirit is God, The Father is God..therefore 3 in 1 and 1 in 3.

 

[edpobre]

Originally posted by LouisBooth

"Neither did Jesus."

Sure he did...100% man, 100% God, its called the incarnation and is accepted by all true christian churches

How many&nbsp;TRUE&nbsp;"Christian" churches are there Louis? Are Catholics, Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Baptists, etc, ALL true "Christian" churches? &nbsp;You must be joking! The ONLY doctrine that MAKE these churches ONE (ie., in agreement) is their BELIEF that Jesus is God.

"There is no verse that states God limited Himself. "

You just haven't read closely enough then. Phil 2:5-8 show us Christ taking on the role of a servant, though he was in the very nature of God. He limited himself. It says that very clear in verse 7.."but made himself nothing..."

Please NOTE that apostle Paul SAID Christ was "in the very nature OF God." This is NOT saying that "Christ was God."

Tell me HONESTLY Louis, what is the "very nature OF God" that Christ WAS in when he TOOK the role of a servant?

Please don't TWIST the meaning of what apostle Paul wrote to FIT your FALSE doctrine that Christ is God.

"Christ changed and discarded some laws. "

LOL, no he didn't, he clarified them and he said himself he didn't change the law only came to fufill it. Again, you're not reading.

Tell me HONESTLY Louis, what LAW did Jesus COME to fulfill?

"The bible consistantly says one, one, one. Not three in one."

I totally agree, God is one, Christ is God, Holy Spirit is God, The Father is God..therefore 3 in 1 and 1 in 3.

What you are saying Louis is that there are THREE Gods which you COUNT as ONE. You&nbsp;SAY Christ is God, right? That's the FIRST God you uttered, right?. You&nbsp;ALSO say the Holy Spirit is God, right?&nbsp;That's&nbsp;the SECOND God you uttered, right? Then you ALSO say the Father is God, right? That's the THIRD God you uttered, right?

Now, tell me HONESTLY Louis, how many times did you SAY God? Dis you say it ONCE, TWICE or THRICE?

Let me ask you Louis, if you saw a man walking a Labrador, a Terrier and a Pitbull, would you say the man is walking "A dog?" Please be HONEST Louis,

Ed

 

[fieldsofwind]

ed...

Christ made Himself nothing... He is the Word of God... (Rev. 19:13) His name is the Word of God... (John 1:1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was GOd.... (verse 3)... Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.... (verse 18)... No one has ever seen God, but God the One and ONly, who is at the Father's side, has made him known....

which is exactly why God made Himself a man... it is perfect love ed...

Christ humbled Himself, and was exalted by His Father... while being one with the Father at the same time... If they are two separate beings then God's Love is not complete.

Almighty God calls Himself the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last... Christ... the Christ who made Himself a man, while being in very nature GOD(phil 2... also calls Himself the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last... He is the KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS

Pual says the Christ did not consider equality with God something to be grasped... meaning that he did not have to reach after equality with God... He already had it.

for in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form.

 

[OldShepherd]

Originally posted by Se7en
1 John 5:7- For there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water an the blood; and these three are in agreement.

That is how 1 John 5:7 correctly reads!

"Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in Heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one... (Not found in any Greek manuscript before the sixteenth century.) "
~NIV Study Bible Textnote.

Isn't it obvious that this was added because the perfection of the printing press by Gutenburg meant that the Catholic church could no longer dictate what people knew and understood of the Bible??? It is not inspired scripture!

Ignoring my response will not turn a lie into the truth. I have proven from early church history that the above post is false. Posting it over and over again will not magically turn it into to truth. What was Cyprian quoting in 250 AD? Click link below to verify quote. What you are referring to is the standard anti-Christian/Trinitarian argument which is usually accepted without question as you have done. Anyone who is interested in the truth can do a quick little search online and find some 30-40 manuscripts which have this verse, all many years prior to the printing press.

Cyprian (250 AD) Treatise I On The Unity of the church.
The Lord says, "I and the Father are one; " and again it is written of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, "And these three are one." And does any one believe that this unity which thus comes from the divine strength and coheres in celestial sacraments, can be divided in the Church, and can be separated by the parting asunder of opposing wills? He who does not hold this unity does not hold God's law, does not hold the faith of the Father and the Son, does not hold life and salvation.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-05/anf05-111.htm#P6832_2190664

 

[OldShepherd]

Originally posted by franklin
It's no wonder they always rely on the old worn out excuse: "This is a complete mystery, you cannot begin to understand it". Sorry, I don't buy it !&nbsp; Good post Ed!&nbsp; Keep up the good work brother! FR

Well if you don't buy it quit posting it because you are the only one on this forum posting that.

 

[OldShepherd]

Originally posted by Kain
Emden demonstrates that the Zohar misquotes passages of Scripture; misunderstands the Talmud; contains some ritual observances which were ordained by later rabbinical authorities; mentions the crusades against the Mohammedans (ii. 32a); uses the expression "esnoga" (iii. 232b), which is a Portuguese corruption of "synagogue," and explains it in a cabalistic manner as a compound of the Hebrew words and ; gives a mystical explanation of the Hebrew vowel-points, which were introduced long after the Talmudic period (i. 24b, ii. 116a, iii. 65a)."

Please correct me some more Kain

Jewish Encyclopedia, On The Zohar
These and other objections of Emden's, which were largely borrowed from the French ecclesiastic Jean Morin ("Exercitationes Biblicæ," pp. 359 et seq., Paris, 1669), were refuted by Moses ben Menahem Kunitz, who, in a work entitled "Ben Yo&#7717;ai" (Budapest, 1815), endeavors to show the following characteristics: that the vowel-points were known in Talmudic times; that the rites which Emden claimed to have been ordained by later rabbinical authorities were already known to the Talmud; and that Simeon ben Yo&#7717;ai, who before taking refuge in the cave was designated only by the name of Simeon, is credited in the Talmud with many miracles and mystic sayings. Another work in favor of the antiquity of the Zohar was published by David Luria under the title "&#7730;admut ha-Zohar" (Königsberg, 1855 [?]). It is divided into five chapters, in which the author gives proofs that Moses de Leon did not compile the Zohar; that the Geonim in Babylonia cite cabalistic doctrines from a certain "Midrash Yerushalmi," the language of which strongly resembles that of the Zohar; that the work was compiled before the completion of the Talmud; that a great part of it was written in the period of Simeon ben Yo&#7717;ai; and, finally, that the Aramaic language was used in Talmudic times as well as in the geonic period.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=142&letter=Z

 

[edpobre]

Originally posted by fieldsofwind

ed...

Christ made Himself nothing... He is the Word of God... (Rev. 19:13) His name is the Word of God... (John 1:1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was GOd.... (verse 3)... Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.... (verse 18)... No one has ever seen God, but God the One and ONly, who is at the Father's side, has made him known....

which is exactly why God made Himself a man... it is perfect love ed...

"God the one and only" who is at the Father's side, MADE known who God is." In this sentence fieldsofwind, how MANY Gods are there? Please answer me HONESTLY.

Christ humbled Himself, and was exalted by His Father... while being one with the Father at the same time... If they are two separate beings then God's Love is not complete.

Who are you to say this fieldsofwind? Did God talk to you directly? From WHOM did you learn that Jesus, the SON is NOT a separate being from the FATHER?

Jesus says he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3). Are you MORE authoritative than Jesus?

Almighty God calls Himself the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last... Christ... the Christ who made Himself a man, while being in very nature GOD(phil 2... also calls Himself the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last... He is the KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS

God calls Himself "Alpha and Omega" (Rev. 1:8). Christ calls himself "Alpha and Omega" (Rev. 1:11). That does NOT make them ONE and the SAME. Rev. 5:1 tells us that "HIM who sat on the throne has seven scrolls in&nbsp;His right hand." Rev. 5:6 tells us that&nbsp;the LAMB who stood IN FRONT of "HIM who sat on the throne" and TOOK the scrolls from His&nbsp;right hand.

Rev. 5:13 shows all creatures in heaven and on earth&nbsp;singing praises to BOTH "HIM who sat on the throne" and the LAMB.

Those who are NOT blind can&nbsp;SEE that "HIM who sat on the throne" is SEPARTE and DISTINCT from the LAMB. "HIM who sat on the throne" is the Lord God, who is (today), and who was (yesterday) and is to come (tomorrow or for ever) the ALMIGHTY (Rev. 4:8). The LAMB is as everyone knows, Jesus Christ.

Pual says the Christ did not consider equality with God something to be grasped... meaning that he did not have to reach after equality with God... He already had it.

That's what you&nbsp;WANT the verse to&nbsp;mean. That's apostle Paul's&nbsp;FIGURATIVE description of Christ's HUMILITY. That DESPITE his awesome power and authority, he did NOT brag about it. IZnstead, he HUMBLED himself and BECAME obedient to he point of death.

for in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form.

Apostle Paul has written that Christ is the IMAGE of the INVISIBLE God (Col. 1:15).&nbsp; Apostle Paul has written that Christ is the EXPRESS image of God's person (Heb. 1:3). Apostle Paul has written that Jesus is a MAN (Acts 17:31; Rom. 15:5; 1 Tim. 2:5). Apostle Paul has written that for them (Christians), there is only one God, the FATHER (1 Cor. 8:6).

Therefore, Col. 2:9 does NOT mean that Jesus is God. Apostle Paul was simply saying that Jesus is AS holy and righteous as God.

Ed

 

[Se7en]

Originally posted by OldShepherd
Ignoring my response will not turn a lie into the truth. I have proven from early church history that the above post is false. Posting it over and over again will not magically turn it into to truth.&nbsp;

Then please, explain to me how a group of learned scholars could miss such an important fact that any layman could dig up through a web search...&nbsp; Why would this verse be removed from modern Bible translations?&nbsp; I highly doubt the NIV scholars were anti-trinitarians (as several other footnotes deal with the deity of Christ), and most certainly were not anti-Christian.

&nbsp;

I would also venture to say that even if 1 John 5:7 is accurate as printed in the KJV, it does not magically turn God into a triune deity.&nbsp; Yes, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one in disposition, heart and mind.&nbsp; The verse does not say that they are explicitly one God, co-equal and co-eternal.&nbsp; If the trinity is the key to Christianity, the surely it would have been clearly and unquestionably&nbsp;mentioned more than once.&nbsp;

 

[franklin]

According to the scriptures&nbsp;Christ never considered Himself equal with God.....

Revelation 1:1, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him (Jesus), to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:"

Revelation 1:6, "And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."

Revelation 3:12, "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name."

Revelation 3:5, "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

Compare Revelation 3:5 with:

1 Timothy 5:21, "I charge thee before God (#1), and the Lord Jesus Christ (#2), and the elect angels (#3), that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality."

Any questions mr OS? .......&nbsp;

Be sure your beliefs are derived from and founded upon God's Word, not man's speculations. Anyone who learned their "theology" direct from the scripture would never believe in the Trinity, because there is no such thing taught anywhere therein.

Have a nice day mr OS....

FR

 

[LouisBooth]

"ALL true "Christian" churches?"

IF they adhere to essential christian docterine they are

"Please NOTE that apostle Paul SAID Christ was "in the very nature OF God." This is NOT saying that "Christ was God." "

Yes, that's exactly what Paul ment!! I think it would help if you actually realize that. If you have the nature of God, you're God.

"Now, tell me HONESTLY Louis, how many times did you SAY God? "

3 times, but there is one God...water, ice, steam..I said H20 3 times, but there is only ONE molecule that is H20 God is three in one and one in three.