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If Jesus is God, can these verses be true?

Discussion in 'Paterology, Christology & Pneumatology' started by edpobre, Feb 6, 2002.

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  1. macro11

    macro11 New Member

    22
    +0
    Louis,

    You wrote,
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    *sigh* okay, Just wondering..do you know what the word morph means? Why don't you post what your "old books" say
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    My Webster’s New World Dictionary (1967 edition), The Southwestern Company has morph only as a suffix for a word. It’s meaning is given as, “a combining form meaning one having a specific form.”

    My World Book Dictionary, (ed. Clarence L Barnhart; Field Enterprises Educational Corporation Publishers of the World Book Encyclopedia: 1966) defines moprh as “a minimum meaningful unit or group of speech sounds: Any morph can be recorded as a pheneme or a pattern of phonemems.”
    It also has, “morphology”

    Work through the thought processes with me. These two old books are still 1900 years newer than most of the New Testament. If they don’t have a meaning for morph as “to change one thing into something else,” how can I expect to find this meaning in the New Testament?

    Now, I did find this meaning of morph at the following website.

    http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entries/59/m0425900.html
    morph3
    PRONUNCIATION: môrf
    VERB: Inflected forms: morphed, morph·ing, morphs

    TRANSITIVE VERB: To transform (an image) by computer: cinematic special effects that morphed the villain into a snake.
    INTRANSITIVE VERB: To be transformed: “Yesterday's filmstrip has morphed into today's school computer” (Clifford Stoll, New York Times May 19, 1996).
    ETYMOLOGY: Shortening of metamorphose.

    This tells my your definition of morph has more to do with the Power Rangers than the Bible. It is important to determine what the Bible meant to the original writers and receivers and not read back into it definitions and meanings which weren’t originally intended.

    What I did notice from your response is a significant lack of substantiation for your position. Again, I would be glad to consider your position if you would provide me with the resource information for the lexicon you used.

    You quoted and responded,
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    "Please refer to my discussion with ZoneChaos about John 1. "

    What thread?
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    This one.

    Macro11
     
  2. macro11

    macro11 New Member

    22
    +0
    ZoneChaos,

    You wrote,
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    how can anything but person be "with God".
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    I have a cup of coffee with me right now. It doesn’t require the cup of coffee to be a person.


    You wrote,
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    "Word was God" in verse 1. Hello?
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Essentials of New Testament Greek by Ray Summers, Broadman Press, 1950.
    Page 129 is the first page of lesson 32 dealing with the article in Greek. The second paragraph starts, “The basic function of the Greek article is to identify. At this point an important differentiation should be observed. When the article is used with a construction, the thing emphasized is ‘identity’; when the article is not used, the thing emphasized is quality of character.”

    The paragraph continues (with some adjustments on my part which only insert rough English equivalents of the Greek letters): “This difference is clearly seen in the use of ‘ho theos’ and ‘theos’. ‘Ho theos’ is used of the divine Person ‘God.’ ‘Theos’ is used (generally) of the divine character or essence of God. Thus ‘in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God (‘ton theos’) and the Word was divine (‘theos’)’ gives the sense.”

    Hello? John 1:1 does not identify the Word as God, it describes the character of the Word as godly.

    You wrote,
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    If the Wor dis just an idea.. then it can't be with God, nor can it be God.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Yes and no. Actually, no and yes. No, it can be with God; yes, it cannot be God.

    Macro11
     
  3. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

    +21
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    Quite true, but this coffee is seperate from you, right?

    The coffee is.. so we know it exists. No mentoj of you. just that it exists. We know that it is with you. So, you exist with the coffee, but the coffee exists on its own. The Word was not a plan or a thought or an idea, or else it could not exist outside the Father. The Word was. The Word existed.

    The Word had a being before the world had a beginning. He that was in the beginning never began, and therefore was ever, achronos: without beginning of time.
    Thus, a thought or ide originates by its nature. The Word has always existed. Your coffee has not always existed. It was never eternal.. it was created. So it is with Jesus Chrst. esus Chrsit, as the Son, has laways existed and has been in being since before time, unto etenrity.

    And we see that the Word co-existed with God. And we see that the Word was God.

    We also understand from non-Biblical histiry, that "Logos" or the Word was used in those times as a name or reference to God. God, as Word cannot be with himself if God is not at least a Duality, if not a Trinity.

    I would say get a new source on your greek.

    God (Theos) when used with was (en), is referring to a person in the first, and not a descriptive trait of being as.

    "en" is the imperfect form of eimi, which is a first person singular present verb.

    "en thoos" or was God is sayig that the subject is the indicitive of the present first person of subject: God.

    It isnt saying it is like God, or as God, or Godly. Theos, when used with en is does not make theos an adverb or any other descriptive. Theos is the object of the subject orf thre statement. The subject is what? The subject is the object. The Word is God.
     
  4. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +58
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    "It is important to determine what the Bible meant to the original writers and receivers and not read back into it definitions and meanings which weren’t originally intended. "

    I think the definition is quite clear, just read John 1. The Logos (Christ) became flesh. He was transformed into the image of a man. That meshes right along with col 2:9 and the trinity docterine.

    "Hello? John 1:1 does not identify the Word as God, it describes the character of the Word as godly. "

    Actually using your own definations it would be saying the Logos has the essenice of God, which is exactly what trinity says :)
     
  5. macro11

    macro11 New Member

    22
    +0
    ZoneChaos

    You wrote,
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    The Word was not a plan or a thought or an idea, or else it could not exist outside the Father.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    What is there in John 1:1 that suggests the Word existed outside the Father?


    You wrote,
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    I would say get a new source on your greek.

    God (Theos) when used with was (en), is referring to a person in the first, and not a descriptive trait of being as.

    "en" is the imperfect form of eimi, which is a first person singular present verb.

    "en thoos" or was God is sayig that the subject is the indicitive of the present first person of subject: God.

    It isnt saying it is like God, or as God, or Godly. Theos, when used with en is does not make theos an adverb or any other descriptive. Theos is the object of the subject orf thre statement. The subject is what? The subject is the object. The Word is God.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    I gave you my references. Where are yours? I have never seen the explanation you have offered in any reference material nor in the discussion among the Greek experts on B-Greek.

    Macro11
     
  6. jbenjesus

    jbenjesus <font color="blue">Berean</font>

    165
    +0
    Christian
    I'm going to open up a new thread under discussion > interfaith discussion. I'll see you there to answer your question regarding

    I'll just title it trinitarian doctrine.

    See you there. :wave:
     
  7. Thunderchild

    Thunderchild Sheep in Wolf's clothing

    +1
    Non-Denom
    morph and meta-morph are not the same word. Metamorphosis means to change from one form to another - as caterpillar to butterfly.
    morph refers to form, meta to change (as by succession, or, "hereafter") - That is - the butterfly is the hereafter substance of the caterpillar.

    The identity of Jesus of Nazareth could in fact be a meta-morphosis, as explained by the Bible record. He was the "hereafter" substance of God, a man. Except that the process was later reversed, that is.
     
  8. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
     
  9. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
     
  10. niwde

    niwde Member

    256
    +1
    i guess u a jehovah witness

    believe it or not god is like an instant coffee
    3 in 1
    check out christ's baptism in the gospel of luke
    the only place where the trinity ere present(mention in the bible)
    and mary is the madiatrix between jesus
    and the world is consecrated to her immaculate heart
    so please respect the mother of our saviour
    i hate those ppl who condemn her
    pls be grateful to her answer to God's will
    no her no jesus no jesus all of us will be in hell

    luke was not a member of the twelve apostles
     
  11. Nick_Loves_Abba

    Nick_Loves_Abba Bulls On Parade

    +45
    Christian
    Didn't Jesus himself say he is the great I AM, or he is the I Am, or something along those lines?
     
  12. camaro540

    camaro540 Regular Member

    318
    +0
    Messianic
    Jhn 8:58
    Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you,
    Before Abraham was, I am .

    Exd 3:14
    And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he
    said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM
    hath sent me unto you.
     
  13. Nick_Loves_Abba

    Nick_Loves_Abba Bulls On Parade

    +45
    Christian
    Well that should put a Ed back into thinking mode. Either he will have the drape moved away fro his eyes so he can see the truth, or he will look for fault or a loop hole, when there most certaintly isnt one...
     
  14. Nick_Loves_Abba

    Nick_Loves_Abba Bulls On Parade

    +45
    Christian
    I think I've might of found more to the 'I Am" scriptures...

    Mat 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.


    Joh 19:21 Then said the chief priests of the Jews to Pilate, Write not, The King of the Jews; but that he said, I am King of the Jews.

    (Imagine if there was a comma inbetween "I am" and "King of the Jews" in that last lint.)

    Wow, just a thought.
     
  15. camaro540

    camaro540 Regular Member

    318
    +0
    Messianic
    Here's more to have a look at:

    Mar 12:29
    And Jesus answered him, The first of all the
    commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our
    God is one Lord:

    Deu 6:4
    Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD:

    Jhn 10:29
    My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and
    no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.

    Jhn 10:30
    I and [my] Father are one.

    Jhn 1:1
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was
    with God, and the Word was God.

    Jhn 1:2
    The same was in the beginning with God.

    Jhn 1:3
    All things were made by him; and without him was
    not any thing made that was made.

    Jhn 1:10
    He was in the world, and the world was made by him,
    and the world knew him not.

    Why people want to take YHVH and split Him into sections, I
    don't know... I would also like to point out that our
    Creator Himself tells everyone the very first commandment...
    (Mark 12:29)
     
  16. Nick_Loves_Abba

    Nick_Loves_Abba Bulls On Parade

    +45
    Christian
    Yes indeed if we look at John chapter 1, all these verses tie into the fact that the Word [Jesus] was with God, and indeed, is God, sense the begining.
     
  17. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +58
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    I just want to know one thing..if Jesus wasn't God then why did people worship him after he was resurrected..see the end of matt..chapter 26 if memory serves...In revelation we see John bow down to worship an angel and he says..whoa!! Just worship God, not me...If Christ was not God he would not have accepted worship because it would break one of the commandments :)
     
  18. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
     
  19. Catchup

    Catchup Active Member

    917
    +1
    Christian
    Private
    Christ was not merely a messenger of God, like the ancient prophets, but rather the eternal Son of God now clothing himself with human nature, yet free from any taint of sin. He had a divine and a human nature united in one person. The boy Jesus grew in body and advanced in knowledge and in the wisdom that enabled him to make proper use of what he knew. The scriptural accounts emphasize his progress in the understanding of the OT and affirm his consciousness of a special relation to his Father in heaven (Luke 2:49). At his baptism Jesus received divine confirmation of his mission and the anointing of the Holy Spirit for the fulfillment of it. By the Baptism he was fulfilling all righteousness (Matt 3:15) in the sense that he was identifying himself with those he came to redeem. Closely related to the Baptism is the Temptation, for it also includes this representative character. The first Adam failed when put to the test; the last Adam succeeded, though weakened by hunger and stressed by the desolation of the wilderness. Jesus overcame Satan's temptations, refusing to be moved from a place of trustful dependence on the Almighty (Matt 4:7, 10). Jesus' message was "the kingdom of God," the rule of God in human life and history. The kingdom was both future (Matt 25:31ff.) and present (Luke 11:20). This last reference connects the kingdom with the activity of Jesus in casting out demons. To the degree that Jesus invades the kingdom of Satan in this fashion, the kingdom of God has already come. Doing the will of God was the mainspring of Jesus' ministry (Matt 6:10; 12:50; Mark 14:36; John 4:34). Even as Christ was engaged in teaching his disciples from the days of the Transfiguration on, he was ever moving toward Jerusalem to fulfill his course at the cross (Luke 9:51). In those latter days some stirring events were unfolded--the triumphal entry into Jerusalem, the cleansing of the temple, the institution of the Lord's Supper, the soul conflict in the Garden of Gethsemane, the arrest and trial, the Crucifixion, the Resurrection, the appearances, the Ascension into heaven. In the Cross man's day erupted in violence and blasphemy. In the Resurrection God's day began to dawn. It was his answer to the world and to the powers of darkness. In it Christ was justified and his claims illuminated.

    Now I will leave you before my anger takes over this post!
    Who are you to attack the Son of God??
    You can not damage Christ!
    The only one who you will make less is YOU!!

    :pray: LOVE
     
  20. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
     
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