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If Jesus is God, can these verses be true?

Discussion in 'Paterology, Christology & Pneumatology' started by edpobre, Feb 6, 2002.

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  1. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    hahahahahahaha

    "there were also quite a number of people who existed before Abraham"

    Umm..I guess you just aren't seeing the implications at all. They (people that exsisted before abraham) weren't standing there saying he, I exsisted before you..or you do now advocate reincaration *sigh* It was comparing himself to eternal, for to exsist before someone and be alive at that time you are saying you are eternal, or pre-exsistant. If Jesus wasn't God then that means everyone is pre-exsistant and that's against what the bible says too.
     
  2. jbenjesus

    jbenjesus <font color="blue">Berean</font>

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    From Old Covenant to New Covenant, He is the same yesterday, today and forever.

    God is a Spirit
    John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

    Acts 7:48,49
    Acts 17:24-28
    I Kings 8:27
    Jeremiah 23:24

    The Spirit of God is not confined to time and space. He is limitless and unconstrained in His omnipresence even if He decides to reside somewhere or someplace. He still exists everywhere at once.

    There is but One God, who is also considered One Lord, One Father, One Creator, One King
    Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

    Mark 12:28-34 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

    Malachi 2:10 Have we not all one father ? hath not one God created us ? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

    Isaiah 44:6-8 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel , and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them. Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

    Isaiah 45:2-6 I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron: And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel. For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me. I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

    Isaiah 46:8,9 Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors. Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

    I Corinthians 8:4-6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

    Ephesians 4:5:6 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all , who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

    I Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

    James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.


    Jesus is that very same God spoken of above, come in the flesh, and no other

    Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
    Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father , The Prince of Peace.

    John 1:1,14 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God… And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    John 8:24,58,59 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
    Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

    John 14:6-11 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

    II Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ , reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

    I Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh,…


    Jesus is Man

    Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

    Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

    Luke 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

    Luke 2:6,7 And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered. And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.

    Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

    Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

    Philippians 2:7,8 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    God humbled Himself by manifesting Himself in the form of a servant, in the likeness of men, fashioned as a man.

    I Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

    Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

    God, as a man, could be tempted in all points like we are.

    Hebrews 7:24,25 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

    If you accept and recognize the last few passages referring to Jesus as a man, then by the same token you must recognized the previous passages above, that refer to Jesus as God. Or else you would be biased using the scriptures that you agree with only, rather than the whole picture of scriptures which refer to Jesus both as God and as man.

    You may not understand how this is possible, but to be honest with you, your understanding of it is irrelevant. It is what scripture refers to Jesus as and it should be accepted as the truth. With or without your understanding.
     
  3. macro11

    macro11 New Member

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    To Jbenjesus

    = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
    They, of all people, knew exactly what Jesus claimed to be, because what He did and said could only be said and done by God. That's what got them so riled up. He said I and the Father are one. But He went a step beyond that and forgave sins, healed the lame and sick and cast out demons. These are things that can only be done by God. They knew and understood that too and they could do nothing by word or power to contest it. The works witnessed or testified of the truth He was speaking concerning His own identity.
    = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

    They of all people knew nothing about what Jesus was saying. They were too busy trying to find an excuse to kill Jesus. They weren’t trying to kill Jesus because He claimed to be God. They were trying to kill Jesus because He was showing himself to be the Messiah.

    They knew “what He did and said could only be said and done by God.” They didn’t believe any such thing. Look at Matthew 9:8. It says, “when the crowds saw this, they were awestruck, and glorified God, who had given such authority to men.” Yes, the crowds recognized God had given authority to Jesus.

    You are putting words in the mouths of people they never even considered. You are exaggerating as much as the religious leaders of Jesus’ day. They exaggerated Jesus’ words every chance they got in an effort to persuade the crowds Jesus couldn’t be the Messiah. They exaggerated so they could make up a reason to kill Jesus. They wanted Him dead and they didn’t care what excuse worked. They tried them all. Did they believe any of the excuses they put forward for killing Jesus? Not a chance.

    macro11
     
  4. macro11

    macro11 New Member

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    Louis,

    = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
    yeah so? That is only because Jesus gave it all up before coming to earth..he limited himself to be obendent to show us an example of how to live. See Phil 2:5-8 for details.
    = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

    “yeah so?” Did it take you all night to think up that reply? “yeah so?”

    I have looked in to Philippians 2:5-8 and it doesn’t say anything about Jesus giving up anything before coming to earth. Earth isn’t mentioned at all let alone Jesus coming to it. It says Jesus gave up something, but there is no time frame for when it happened. Well, maybe one. The only specific event with an identifiable time frame is His death. It is entirely possible everything mentioned in the text took place at His death. But that wouldn’t fit your pre-determined picture of what you want to see in the text, would it?

    Why don’t you give up your “yeah so?s” for Lent?

    macro11
     
  5. jbenjesus

    jbenjesus <font color="blue">Berean</font>

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    Why are you so hostile to Louis and I?

    I see you also strayed away from making any remark regarding every single scripture I referenced identifying who was Jesus.

    Please show us in scriptures when the religious leaders exaggerated Jesus' words?
     
  6. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "They weren’t trying to kill Jesus because He claimed to be God. They were trying to kill Jesus because He was showing himself to be the Messiah. "

    No, they only started trying to find ways to kill him AFTER he claimed to be God.

    "I have looked in to Philippians 2:5-8 and it doesn’t say anything about Jesus giving up anything before coming to earth. "

    Then you obviously don't understand the passage. The whole passage is about being submissive to God the Father, as Christ was. Christ was God, gave it up and came down to earth and was submissive to God as an example for us and to fufill the law. I'm not exadurating, read the passage for yourself.
     
  7. macro11

    macro11 New Member

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    jbenjesus

    If you would point out the portion of my letter which you believe is hostile to you, I will gladly apologize. There was no hostile intent. I will not apologize for stating my position strongly. You have stated your position strongly.

    I will grant a bit of hostility toward Louis. He presents himself with arrogant superiority. Notice his statement to me, “Then you obviously don't understand the passage.” It assumes because I disagree with him, I don’t understand. It assumes he does understand it.

    = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
    Please show us in scriptures when the religious leaders exaggerated Jesus' words?
    = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

    John 5:18. For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

    Jesus claimed God was His Father, but Jesus never made any claim to be equal to God. He Jews exaggerated Jesus’ statement in an attempt to gain an excuse for killing Jesus. Jesus’ words from John 5:19-47 is reason after reason for why Jesus is not equal to God.

    Greater proof of their exaggeration is in John 8:41, they, too, claimed God as their Father. Are they claiming to be equal to God, there? It is obvious (to me, at least) they are not. They never believed Jesus was making Himself equal to God for an instant. They exaggerated and lied about Jesus’ words to create an excuse the people would accept for taking Jesus away to kill Him.

    John 10:33. The Jews answered Him, For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.

    Jesus had said He and the Father were one. Jesus was speaking of the unity of purpose between Himself and God. It is the same unity Jesus describes in John 17:21-23. They exaggerated the meaning of Jesus’ words in another in the long line of attempts to enflame the people against Jesus.

    Jesus responded to their accusation in John 10:34-36. Jesus specifically claimed to be the Son of God and not God, Himself. The Jews knew Jesus answered them well. They had no response to His denial of making Himself out to be God.

    Jesus responded so well to these false accusations they were never repeated at Jesus’ trial. If the Jews truly believed Jesus was making these claims, they wouldn’t have had to hire liars to put up a false case against Jesus. They would simply have repeated the accusations made. But Jesus did denounce their claims. They knew they couldn’t make these exaggerated charges stick. So should you.

    I wasn’t responding to your letter with so many scriptures in it. I was responding to a previous one. If you would care to designate which one of the texts you presented is the strongest one for your case that Jesus is God, I will respond to it.

    macro11
     
  8. macro11

    macro11 New Member

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    Louis,

    = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
    Then you obviously don't understand the passage. The whole passage is about being submissive to God the Father, as Christ was. Christ was God, gave it up and came down to earth and was submissive to God as an example for us and to fufill the law. I'm not exadurating, read the passage for yourself.
    = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

    I agree, the whole passage is about Jesus being submissive to God as an example for us. I do have a few questions for you, though.

    By what authority do you limit the reference to God in these verses to God the Father? Why couldn’t it be to God the Holy Spirit?

    In which verse in Philippians 2:5-8 do you find the word, earth? I agree Jesus gave up something, but you have not shown me in the text how you arrived at a time frame for that surrender.

    Please, help me to understand what is so obvious to you.

    I am glad you are not exadurating. Even if I read the passage for myself, I wouldn’t do that. It’s gross! It might even be immoral!

    Oh, if you decide to make reference to a Greek lexicon, could you please provide the name, editor, publisher, and publishing date. That way I can check out what you have said and know it isn’t just something you made up.

    macro11
     
  9. jbenjesus

    jbenjesus <font color="blue">Berean</font>

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    Simply put, they were not exaggerating. They knew exactly what he alluded to. You need to interpret this from a Jewish perspective. Your seeing too much as an outsider without understanding the culture and the context of what Jesus said and why it was interpreted as such.

    Since you said this last line, it seems you haven't read every single post in the thread. I would ask you to read every single blue post in this thread and then address the issues as they come.

    I think, I've already explained thoroughly as to the matter.

    The works and words that Jesus spoke testified to His idenitity because none other than God could have done and said what He did and said.
     
  10. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "By what authority do you limit the reference to God in these verses to God the Father"

    Depends on what passages you are talking about.

    "In which verse in Philippians 2:5-8 do you find the word, earth? "

    You don't. If you're questioning did he come to earth..yeah..John 1:14 I also think died on a cross is a clear reference to him coming to earth. :)

    "I agree Jesus gave up something, but you have not shown me in the text how you arrived at a time frame for that surrender. "

    "you attitdue should be the same as christ Jesus:who, being in the very nature (in the very form of) God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped ..but MADE himself nothing." He gave it all up as an example to us. He submitted to the God the Father.

    Macro, I don't make up things in greek, its a language. *sigh*
     
  11. Thunderchild

    Thunderchild Sheep in Wolf's clothing

    +1
    Non-Denom
    Where was the one who gave up equality with god found as a man? Mars, perhaps? Or could Earth or Heaven be possible answers? Oh - people tend not to die in Heaven.

    It may be though, that being submissive to God extended beyond being submissive to the Father. I cannot dismiss that possibility.

    Not only the scribes and pharisees were claiming that Jesus was saying he was equal to God - the very author of the passage makes the same claim - saying that they were trying to kill Jesus because he had made himself equal with God.

    It was comparing himself to eternal, for to exsist before someone and be alive at that time you are saying you are eternal, or pre-exsistant Hmmmm.... I existed before my daughter and I continue to exist .... nope, I am not in the least saying that I am eternal - not in the least.
     
  12. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    Jben, are you Trinitarian (Triune) or Oneness?
     
  13. jbenjesus

    jbenjesus <font color="blue">Berean</font>

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    One God not three.

    I thought I was clear, though :D .
     
  14. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    That isn't clear.. :)

    Trinitarians hold to One God..

    I want to know of you see that One God as 3 persons or 1 persons.
     
  15. jbenjesus

    jbenjesus <font color="blue">Berean</font>

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    One God - with many manifestations, roles, and ways that He has revealed or disclosed Himself in relation to man.

    Trinitarians hold to 3 persons. I don't.

    I thought we talked about this before. You even admitted "person's" was probably not a correct word to use yet you still hold to it.

    I do recognize His role as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I don't deny those titles. I recognize them as roles God has played in relation to man or ways God has revealed Himself to man. He's also our provider, banner, righteousness and many other such titles as revealed in the Old Covenant.
     
  16. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    sorry sorry sorry "persons" bad.. sheesh...

    From what you wrote, You define yourself as a Trinitarian. :)

    The only thing I would add to your definition is that in relation to themselves, these 3 manifestations are seperate unto themselves while at the same time are the same one God.

    Would you agree that there are three (insert word here) in one God, not three Gods?

    The (insert word here) are known as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and they have all always existed as seperate and as one.

    Father is not the same as the Son. The Son is not the same as the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not the same as the Father.

    And, at the same time these three (whatever you want to refer to them as) are one God.
     
  17. macro11

    macro11 New Member

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    Jbenjesus

    = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
    Simply put, they were not exaggerating. They knew exactly what he alluded to. You need to interpret this from a Jewish perspective. Your seeing too much as an outsider without understanding the culture and the context of what Jesus said and why it was interpreted as such.
    = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

    What makes you think I am not interpreting these passages from a Jewish perspective? It can’t be because I disagree with you can it?

    I am considering the context of Jesus’ entire ministry. I am considering the context of the four entire gospels.

    If you don’t think the Jews were exaggerating in John 5 and 10, then you must believe Jesus broke the law by healing on the Sabbath in Mark 31-6 and Luke 6:6-11. That was the intent of the Jews in those verses.

    If you don’t think the Jews were exaggerating, then you must believe Jesus was casting out demons by the ruler of the demons, Beelzebul (or Beelzebub) as the Jews accused in Matthew 12:22-29; Mark 3:20-27; and Luke 11:14-22.

    If you don’t think the Jews were exaggerating, then you must believe Jesus was a Samaritan and had a demon and was insane as the Jews accused in John 7:20; 8:48, 52; 10:20.

    If you agree the Jews were exaggerating in the verses I have mentioned, why do you choose to believe any thing they say at all. Unless, of course, it matches what you *want* to find in the Bible instead of what the Bible really teaches.

    By believing the Jews had their information correct in John 5 and 10, you side with them against Jesus because He directly contradicted them in those passages, showing their statements to be false.

    By believing the Jews had their information correct in John 5 and 10, you are believing their doctrine. This is something Jesus warned specifically against in Matthew 16:6, 12.


    As far as responding to you litany of verses, I would rather not take the shotgun approach. Tell me which verse undisputedly, in your mind, is the ultimate verse which proves Jesus is God. I will respond to that one.

    Macro11
     
  18. jbenjesus

    jbenjesus <font color="blue">Berean</font>

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    I have no burden for this...

    I've already explained myself.

    If you truly read all that I shared you wouldn't have to take a shotgun approach. But I would ask that you consider the whole post with the references and not cut and paste.

    If that is your argument, and your best one - considering all that I have shared, then I still stand where I do.

    Thanks for sharing.
     
  19. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    We can start with one verse... but it wil lead to others. You cannot look at just one verse of the Bible form a doctrine, without looking at both other relevant verses, and context.

    Now, I can give you John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God."

    This verse shows Jesus as being God. however, that verse alone is not the entire picture, becasue you must read elsewhere to find out who or what John was referring to when he said "the Word".

    As you study John, and then other parts of the NT, then other parts of the OT, you get he whole picture that "the Word" in this verse is Jesus, Christ, the Son of God, come in the flesh, both man and God in duality and in fullness.
     
  20. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +1
    Apologist,

    I wrote:
    You wrote:
    Are you telling me that John 8:40 and John 17:3 only "seem" to back up what you call is my "faulty logic" that Jesus is a MAN and NOT God?

    In John 8:40, Jesus says he is a MAN. In John 17:3, Jesus says the FATHER is the ONLY true God. Is there any other conclusion that can be arrived at from these verses? These are the words of Jesus whom many believe is the way, the TRUTH and the life.

    Thus, if the FATHER is the ONLY true God, how can the SON be ALSO God? The ONLY way that Jesus can be God is if John 8:40 and John 17:3 were false.

    Do you believe John 8:40 and John 17:3 are FALSE and Jesus was telling a LIE?

    Ed
     
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